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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#371

Post by baybal2 »

worik wrote: post #369
baybal2 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. That's a regurgitation of a great lie. Krusev indicated in his memoire that economic data of Stalin's years was defying kindergarden level arithmetics, was utter garbage, and he gave few convincing examples of that, and here, I would believe him. Union's economy saw few ups, and downs during its existence, and those…

The German army at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad/Volgagrad, and Lenningrad/St Petersburg found it was no lie. Do not rely on state propaganda, look at the results

German army mostly found that Union had more soldiers than they had bullets, and that wehrmacht got to Moscow on the fumes.

The "massive industrial advantage" was nothing not to be expected from the most resource rich country on the planet.

Yet, the country was, by all accounts, from both most staunch communist party sources, and contemporary anticommunists, completely incapable of running during the crisis, and "all in" strategy of manufacturing one gun, one tank, one shell, one plane in massive amounts was a result of desperation, not industrial might.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#372

Post by baybal2 »

f6v wrote: post #305
samat wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a popular myth that 'there was a mighty USSR and some enemies ruined it'. The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy. That's just basic science. They exported oil and imported grain. Russia imported GRAIN for gods sake. Then oil prices collapsed. Next? They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. And then 'evil liberals/evil west destroying the great countr…

The truth is in between. Was USSR full of internal problems? Yes. Did USA and allies want USSR destroyed and actively work on? Also yes. Saying that Cold War and the arms race had absolutely no role in USSR collapse is either a blatant lie or incompetence.

> Also yes. Saying that Cold War and the arms race had absolutely no role in USSR collapse is either a blatant lie or incompetence.

USSR could've easily continued its existence if it went full "North Korean." Union's army had no problem to force populace to eat grass in case of a complete economic collapse.

I attribute the single most important contribution to Union's collapse to US funding exchange visits for hundreds of USSR's senior officials, and completely nullifying their will to struggle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24728237

The very same thing has happened to China, and Xi is trying hard to undo it.

His message of absolute committment to, and inreversability of "opening up" don't mean anything to 99% of ordinary citizens.

Whom he addresses these messages to are not ordinary Chines, but elites whom he tries to convince to the best of his abilities to not to drop the ball on him, and the system.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#374

Post by throwaway2048 »

mafribe wrote: post #299
dmix wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

As far as I understand, ASML is not the creation of government funding, but instead a spinout of Philip and ASMI, two successful Dutch electronics companies. ASML was successful in a competitive market, dominated by Japanese companies pretty quickly. In other words, very different model from what the EU is currently trying.

However TSMC is a direct creation of the Taiwanese government.

    In 1985 Morris Chang was recruited by 
    the Taiwanese government to help develop 
    the emerging semiconductor industry. In 
    1986 Morris joined the Hsinchu based non 
    profit research institute ITRI as Chairman 
    and President and launched what would be 
    TSMC’s first semiconductor wafer 
    fabrication plant on the ITRI campus. 
    Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company 
    Ltd. was officially formed in 1987 as a 
    joint venture between the Taiwan government 
    (21%), Dutch multinational electronics 
    giant Philips (28%), and other private investors.
https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-manufacturers/tsmc/1539-a...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#375

Post by judge2020 »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

> for TSMC gigafactory

I thought 'gigafactory' was coined by Tesla/Elon?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#376

Post by throwaway2048 »

dmix wrote: post #259
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

>From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the brilliant engineers you imagine are going to run it.

Are we talking about VC and large corporate investment or government investment here.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#377

Post by rmrfstar »

sneak wrote: post #348
rmrfstar wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sovereignty" is an important concept that dropped out of American discourse in the 1990s. No self-respecting country relies on foreign cryptography to protect its diplomatic communications. Similarly, no self-respecting country in 2030 will rely entirely on foreign integrated circuits. FPGAs will play an important role for small countries, but large groups like EU can afford to go big.

> No self-respecting country relies on foreign cryptography to protect its diplomatic communications. I am fairly certain most of the western world relies on a Belgian cipher called Rijndael to encrypt all/the majority of its diplomatic communications. I'm not really sure what you mean by this comment.

There is a lot more to a communication system than the primitives it uses. Even holding primitives constant, there is a lot of room for variation (and bugs and side channels). Recall that one of the early identifiers of equation group was subtracting 0x61C88647 rather than adding 0x9E3779B9 during RC6 key setup [1 p. 28]. So I guess what I'm saying is nations don't just download AES bitstreams off the internet.

[1] https://media.kasperskycontenthub.com/wp-content/uploads/sit...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#378

Post by mattashii »

petre wrote: post #282
adventured wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. Anchored, yeah sure. So you're listing something that isn't in the EU, which is revealing. ITER is entirely irrelevant. It's a pork project that won't result in much. The biggest breakthroughs in fusion will derive from smaller projects, not giant slow-moving projects like ITER. The next 20-30 years of energy generation is wind, natural gas, oil, solar, some h…

Fusion research needs a lot of money and resources. I honestly doubt it can be done by a startup. Nuclear fission was done by very well funded military research. It is true that China has licensed basically every nuclear design, but France is still a leader in nuclear fission.

I believe that if startups can keep losing billions each year and go public without ever running a profit, then startups may just as well be able to create a fusion power plant.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#379

Post by CamperBob2 »

worik wrote: post #354
jbay808 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. Those resources they ate through -- when were they accumulated? I find it hard to believe that they became a superpower by just coasting on the wealth that existed in 1917.

In 1917 they were in ruins. in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won. The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. They made the best rockets, fighter planes, super computers.... But they never made a TV with a remote control.

in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won.

Yes, by throwing ten million of their own citizens at the problem.

They won because Hitler ran out of bullets before Stalin ran out of targets.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#380

Post by TMWNN »

ATsch wrote: post #356
csunbird wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! Exactly. The salaries in EU are pitiful.

That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. Compared to the huge wage increase, the increase in living standard is very minor (and in some regards worse, e.g. the amount of time you lose daily to the car c…

>That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live.

At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/), where "disposable income" (http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=46) accounts for healthcare and government benefits.

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