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Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#61

Post by ashtonkem »

aaomidi wrote: post #60
ashtonkem wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prohibiting drunk driving doesn’t involve depriving citizens of their property, especially property that was legal when they bought it.

It literally does though. Drunk driving removes the usability of their cars that they could've spent tens of thousands of dollars on this.

There is a clear and important distinction between restrictions on how property can be used, and the government literally seizing property. Trying to argue that those are one and the same is just silly.

A better parallel would be fining based on emissions, which I would be fine with. But actually seizing private property? Hell no.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#62

Post by 2Xheadpalm »

jeffbee wrote: post #15
spodek wrote: post #4

Low Tech Magazine, one of my favorite sites online, has written a few articles on wood and biomass: - Well-Tended Fires Outperform Modern Cooking Stoves: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-c... - Too Much Combustion, Too Little Fire: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2019/12/too-much-combustion-... - How to Make Biomass Energy Sustainable Again: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/09/how-to-mak…

Low Tech Magazine is pretty much bullshit from cover to cover and these articles are great examples of the genre. Read the first one with a critical eye. It doesn't make any sense. It's just a deceptive argument constructed to make performative primitivism seem competitive with modern technology, which it isn't. An electric induction cooker is superior to any kind of fire, in all aspects and ways, by large margins in…

'An electric induction cooker is superior to any kind of fire, in all aspects and ways, by large margins in every direction.' - except in running costs, I have no idea but assume they draw around 2000 watts for each plate.

  Alternatively, I can collect enough firewood in a few days of my spare time, I would have spent in the woods anyway, that will heat my modestly sized house cozily and cook all my meals for at least 6 months of the years in temperatures that can drop to as low as -40 Celsius for days at a time.  All it cost me was a bit of sweat and hard yakka in the autumn.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#63

Post by apta_ »

gruez wrote: post #6

>Wood burners have become increasingly popular in recent years [...] Almost 16% of people in the south-east of England use wood fuel, and 18% in Northern Ireland, according to 2016 government data, and about 175,000 wood burners are sold annually. If you're wondering why they're so popular, it's because wood counts as "renewable fuel", so it helps EU countries meet their renewable energy targets. https://news.ycombin…

And this is why blindly following regulations, without truly understanding their consequences is dumb. From what I heard, the Trump administration got flak for bailing out of the Paris agreement because they felt that the agreement was similarly dumb.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#65

Post by cjenken »

aqrit wrote: post #19
chrisseaton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're also popular because * people have wood anyway so they might as well use it for something * it often suits the design of houses here which were historically built for a central stove burner like this * many people have wood-burning stoves for cooking that are extremely large and heavy permanent fixtures in their kitchen and cannot easily be removed or adapted and are designed to permanently be burning…

Outdoor wood furnaces (boilers) became very popular over the last 15 years. They are cheaper than fuel oil. A traditional wood stove has to be refilled every 2 hours (or so), and is also a major fire hazard. "Wood burners" may also include pellet stoves which are also increasingly popular for similar reasons.

I have an outdoor wood furnace. It's great at cutting down smoke as it has a re-burner section that keeps the temperature high enough that their is almost no smoke once it gets up to temperature.

But there is a lot more maintenance with something like this. I have to have about 6 cords of wood to make it through winter (which mostly comes off my property) but that also means handling the fuel (bucking and then splitting the wood as well as having the space to let it season for a year to dry it). Filling up the furnace once or twice a day depending on the weather. Cleaning out the ash once a month. And now that it's getting older (8 years) I have to fix up some of the welds inside the main chamber.

I don't mind the extra work as it saves a lot of money in electricity bills and all that splitting of wood has been good exercise. But I wouldn't recommend it unless you have the time and energy to do the work.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#66

Post by gnicholas »

generalizations wrote: post #51
aaomidi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're also assuming it's appropriate for some government beurocrat to make such a decision on the first place. " China banned the country from getting pallets of plastic because once they factored in the public health costs, it wasn't profitable (and it was barely profitable before hand). The government bans people from driving while drunk because they have a potential to hurt others. We have precedence for the go…

There's a clear difference between prohibiting drunk driving, and telling me I can't continue to use my wood stove inside my own home.

They are both cases of individual behavior creating negative externalities for others. In the case of drunk driving, there is a risk of sudden death. In the case of wood burning stoves, there is a risk (more of a certainty, actually) that nearby people will have their health negatively impacted over a longer time horizon.

Drunk driving generates more obvious and immediate effects, but burning a wood stove or fireplace can still harm others.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#67

Post by fasteddie31003 »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #37
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #20

If you smell wood smoke your fireplace is either not an efficient design or you are burning the wood wrong. A modern efficient fireplace with a catalytic converter does a really good job at converting wood to heat.

Does a wood-stove catalytic converter help with PM2.5? That seemed to be the main focus of the article.

It burns hotter which means it does a better job at combustion. I'd imagine the PM2.5 is much lower for a hotter fire.

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#69

Post by apta_ »

gnicholas wrote: post #7

I have a neighbor who burns wood every day, and I bought an air quality monitor to see what the impact is on our air. The AQI hits 150 when it’s burning, which is really unhealthy. I was surprised it was this bad, especially since he’s not that close of a neighbor (on a different street even).

Which air quality monitor did you purchase?

Re: Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts

#70

Post by throw0101a »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8
gruez wrote: post #6

>Wood burners have become increasingly popular in recent years [...] Almost 16% of people in the south-east of England use wood fuel, and 18% in Northern Ireland, according to 2016 government data, and about 175,000 wood burners are sold annually. If you're wondering why they're so popular, it's because wood counts as "renewable fuel", so it helps EU countries meet their renewable energy targets. https://news.ycombin…

I think they're also popular because * people have wood anyway so they might as well use it for something * it often suits the design of houses here which were historically built for a central stove burner like this * many people have wood-burning stoves for cooking that are extremely large and heavy permanent fixtures in their kitchen and cannot easily be removed or adapted and are designed to permanently be burning…

> people like the smell and aesthetic (note this article is in just about the most middle-class publication there is in the UK)

The problem here and described in the article is that people are not using direct vent stoves/fireplaces. What is being talking about are units that vent out a chimney/flue, but take the air for combustion from the house itself. This is not what you want for health or efficiency reasons.

What you want is to take air from the outside, have it combust the fuel, and then be vented outside:

* https://www.napoleon.com/en/ca/fireplaces/blog/how-direct-ve...

* https://www.northcountryfire.com/blogs/news/what-is-a-direct...

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKCwg8jwHd8

The only thing that should enter the living space is radiant heat.

Also: if the smoke exiting your fireplace/stove is dark (or even grey), then you have an inefficient unit. The exhaust air should be clear, as that means 'everything' has been burned. In the US, the now-mandated EPA BurnWise standard has stoves being between 60-80% efficient (depending on the design):

* https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/frequent-questions-about-wood-b...

You can find people saying that they use one-half or even one-third of the wood that they used to after upgrading.

Also a useful hint: if you're going to use one in a domicile where you live for long periods of time, it may be worth looking at soapstone designs, as they retain heat more (though warm up is longer). For shorter periods, e.g., in a cabin/cottage, then iron could be better as it heats/cools quicker, so that may be fine for a (long) weekend stay.

For best results, regardless of heating method, make sure you make your domicile more airtight to reduce drafts, and increase insulation.

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