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When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

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Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#51

Post by kyboren »

js2 wrote: post #46
boomboomsubban wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The last century has been one interference after the next by Western powers and Russia in the Middle East The last two centuries, the interference was so common in the 19th century it inspired the name "The Great Game."

Thank you for the reference. I have some reading to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

I can highly recommend Alexander Burnes' non-fiction Travels into Bokhara and Rudyard Kipling's fictional Kim, which in fact coined the term "The Great Game".

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#52

Post by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 »

The Pathans managed to boot out the Brits with bloody noses whenever they invaded Afghanistan. In between, Pathan tribes on the then India side of the Durand Line kept the Brits out of their lands except for punitive expeditions. The Brits solved the problem of depredations against ruled populations by garrisoning forts guarding against tribe X with recruits from tribe Y. In fact there was a dozen or so tribes. This policy also provided gainful employment for young men who otherwise would have resorted to brigandage against agricultural populations under the Raj.

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#53

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

KineticLensman wrote: post #23
varjag wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origin of Afghan resistance was Soviet invasion. It was the 120,000 troops of Soviet mechanised infantry over 10 years that made Mujahedeen who they are, not a dozen CIA instructors showing them jumping jacks in Pakistan.

> The origin of Afghan resistance was Soviet invasion They also resisted the British quite well in 1842 [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul [Edit] In fact I think I'm right in saying that the last person to successfully invade Afghanistan was Alexander the Great, and even he had to stop campaigning when his army mutinied rather than continue ops in the Indian subcontinent.

I believe Genghis Khan and Tamerlane also successfully conquered Afghanistan.

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#54

Post by Wildgoose »

iguy wrote: post #43
specialist wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being a smart ass: Ditto Switzerland? IIRC, Hitler didn't invade for similar reasons. A well armed citizenry. (And a convenient fence for all the spoils of war.) Historically, was Switzerland it's own thing? Did Napoleon, the Hapsburgs, misc Papacies, Franks and Normans, etc, march around those mountains?

Would be interesting to know more, but as far as I know Switzerland (or the area) was never especially like this. I mean it was always mountainous, obviously, but the people were not so different from their neighbors. Cheese-makers who worried about having enough hay for the winter, not cattle-rustlers. The obvious west-european example would be Scotland. And the "solution" was more or less to deport the people to Ir…

I think it was the people of the ungovernable borderlands between England and Scotland (both sides) that ended up being deported to Northern Ireland, (and of course the Scots originally came from Northern Ireland anyway).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debatable_Lands

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#56

Post by davchana »

KineticLensman wrote: post #23
varjag wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origin of Afghan resistance was Soviet invasion. It was the 120,000 troops of Soviet mechanised infantry over 10 years that made Mujahedeen who they are, not a dozen CIA instructors showing them jumping jacks in Pakistan.

> The origin of Afghan resistance was Soviet invasion They also resisted the British quite well in 1842 [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul [Edit] In fact I think I'm right in saying that the last person to successfully invade Afghanistan was Alexander the Great, and even he had to stop campaigning when his army mutinied rather than continue ops in the Indian subcontinent.

The Sikh General Hari Singh Nalwa also uprooted & defeated Afghan Leaders like Dost Mohammad & others, & ruled Afghanistan Throne & build forts around there, even died in his last battle, but did not let the news of his death come out making sure his side wins, in around 1830s. [0]

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Singh_Nalwa

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#57

Post by adamjb »

specialist wrote: post #40
barry-cotter wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are far too kind to the US military. Afghanistan was too tough a nut for the British long before the Americans showed up. Pastoralist herders with a country that’s mostly mountain is practically perfect for making ungovernable people. See the Caucasus, Balkans and upland Indochina for further examples. All the more so when they were swimming with guns already.

Not being a smart ass: Ditto Switzerland? IIRC, Hitler didn't invade for similar reasons. A well armed citizenry. (And a convenient fence for all the spoils of war.) Historically, was Switzerland it's own thing? Did Napoleon, the Hapsburgs, misc Papacies, Franks and Normans, etc, march around those mountains?

Napoleonic forces invaded Switzerland and established a client state. Napoleon and 40,000 men quite famously crossed the Alps from Switzerland (base camp at Martigny) as part of the Italian campaign in 1800, as depicted in [0] and [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Crossing_the_Alps

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonaparte_Crossing_the_Alps

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#58

Post by EL_Loco »

I don't understand, this is one of the main jobs of the U.S. Army's Special Forces (also known as Green Berets). Their whole thing is learning how to train and fight alongside indigenous forces. The 2001 invasion of Afghanistan was just that, where literally a handful of SF operators joined the Northern Alliance and helped them capture several cities from the Taliban (in the process becoming the first US soldiers to do battle on horseback since 1942)

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#59

Post by disown »

barry-cotter wrote: post #32
PaulAJ wrote: post #2

Fascinating though this is, the negative long term impact of these guys tends to be much greater than their positive short-term impact. You go in, you train a bunch of locals as guerrillas, you achieve the objective, and then you get out, leaving the local guerrillas behind. These guys now have the knowledge, experience and organisation to make the place ungovernable. At least some of them will proceed to do so; eith…

You are far too kind to the US military. Afghanistan was too tough a nut for the British long before the Americans showed up. Pastoralist herders with a country that’s mostly mountain is practically perfect for making ungovernable people. See the Caucasus, Balkans and upland Indochina for further examples. All the more so when they were swimming with guns already.

It has more to do with ethnic divisions within afghanistan and being near major powers russia, china, india, iran, etc and now the US. Japan is mountainous but eminently governable.

Re: When You’re Outnumbered: Lessons from Two British Masters of Irregular Warfare

#60

Post by cafard »

The Italian occupation of Ethiopia was largely ended by conventionally organized forces. Likewise the the Japanese occupation of Burma. The British fondness for irregular warfare in WW II largely came from the need to do something, combined with the inability to do anything much. Blowing up stuff in Norway did make some contributions, but the war in Europe was won largely by the Red Army overwhelming the Wehrmacht. Wingate played a useful role in Burma, but Slim got the job done.
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