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Beowulf: A New Translation

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Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#51

Post by TiredGuy »

wolverine876 wrote: post #49

If you want a less interpretive translation, one designed to carefully reflect the original (IMHO, two different approaches for two different purposes; I don't favor either), another not mentioned is JRR Tolkien's, published for the first time in the 21st century. He wrote it in the 1920s, never published it, and his son Christopher (executor of his literary estate) finally published it in 2014. I imagine that I'm re…

Since we're talking about epic poetry, Tolkien's experience and skill with writing poetry is also worth mentioning, which can be found throughout his works, especially in his great mythopoeic work The Silmarillion.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#52

Post by scottlocklin »

derefr wrote: post #50
scottlocklin wrote: post #48

This is a ridiculous PR puff piece by her publisher, and even a vague perusal of the translation indicates it's an atrocity, which is exactly what you'd expect from a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition. https://newcriterion.com/issues/2020/12/cartes-de-visite "Maria Dahvana Headley’s new translation of Beowulf starts off like an exploding beer keg: “Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of…

> Headley has had the wicked idea that what we’ve needed all along is Beowulf: The Frat-Boy Chronicles. Maybe it doesn't apply to the cultural context of Beowulf, but from https://patrickwyman.substack.com/p/bro-culture-fitness-chiv... , I got the impression that "bro culture" is a valid — and illmuninating! — lens through which to at least view the concept of medieval chivalry.

That's a great point (also cool article bro), but as a participant in "bro culture" (power lifting, BJJ, kick boxing, etc etc you name it; hell I used to be a goddamned auto mechanic, and the larval me had to chop wood to heat the house) -this lady didn't do her field research. She's regurgitating stale stereotypes about working class masculinity from the vantage point of a privileged self-regarding nitwit from Portland.

At her present state of enlightenment she's about as capable of writing about violence or even bro culture in any useful way as I am about giving birth or the emotions experienced on a daily basis by resentful intersectional feminists.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#53

Post by isitdopamine »

Sebguer wrote: post #26
Rebelgecko wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A charitable interpretation is that OP is using that as an example of how a white supremecist inserts his own biases when reading various translations of Nicomachean Ethics. Sort of a meta-example, since the guy in the video makes mountains out of moleholes wrt to how public domain translations use more antiquated language than the modern translation his college professor made him buy.

I don't think there's any particular reason to be charitable with someone hiding behind anonymity.

Wrong. Many accounts here are more or less anonymous, probably a vast majority. Still, one of the things making HN a special place is that we assume good faith.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#54

Post by Sebguer »

isitdopamine wrote: post #53
Sebguer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's any particular reason to be charitable with someone hiding behind anonymity.

Wrong. Many accounts here are more or less anonymous, probably a vast majority. Still, one of the things making HN a special place is that we assume good faith.

Sorry, I should've used the word 'throwaway' instead of anonymity. The account was created to post this singular link, without any context to the author. That's the problematic piece, not that their identity isn't evident.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#55

Post by Blikkentrekker »

pmiller2 wrote: post #20
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #15

Poetry is not a medium that lends itself well to translation and no one can claim to have the Sprachgefühl for 900s English to appreciate the original, and most likely if one did it wouldn't be spectacular. I remember reading some of it and I found it incredibly boring and gave up.

In the case of Beowulf, that is very not true. We have an excellent idea of what the Anglo Saxon language would have sounded like, in part because it has close living relatives. Anglo Saxon and Old Norse were mutually intelligible. Conveniently, Iceland was settled by the Norsemen in the 9th century. Its geographic isolation contributed heavily to the Icelandic language's slow rate of change -- to the extent that if…

> We have an excellent idea of what the Anglo Saxon language would have sounded like, in part because it has close living relatives.

The phonology is well reconstructed; that is not the issue.

The issue is that it is not just a dead language, but a dead passive language which is only read, but never written, unlike, say Latin, which is both read and written — I seriously doubt that there are more than a handful of people on this planet who can claim to have true Sprachgefühl for any period of Old English, and if they have it for 800's English, it is unlikely they have it for 1000's English.

It's simply prætentious to claim that one can enjoy the æsthetics of a poem written in this language, for which one requires an intimate sense of Sprachgefühl — I can Latin myself and understand the meaning of the text, but I cannot claim to have the same sense of æsthetics I have for English, where I can decide what phrasings sound beautiful, and what sound stiff, and that's very hard to ever acquire for a dead language.

> If you want to hear it, you can listen to the first few lines here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH-_GwoO4xI

Listening to the sounds is different from understanding the meaning and nuance, much of what you wrote seems to be about surface realization of sounds rather than appreciating the choice of words from an æsthetic standpoint.

That speaker also clearly sounds as what he almost certainly is: a non-native who would certainly appear to have an heavy accent and appear stiff and wooden to actual native speakers.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#56

Post by Blikkentrekker »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #38
pmiller2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Beowulf, that is very not true. We have an excellent idea of what the Anglo Saxon language would have sounded like, in part because it has close living relatives. Anglo Saxon and Old Norse were mutually intelligible. Conveniently, Iceland was settled by the Norsemen in the 9th century. Its geographic isolation contributed heavily to the Icelandic language's slow rate of change -- to the extent that if…

The seemingly archaic quality of modern Icelandic is largely a myth. Over the centuries Icelandic absorbed a huge amount of Danish loanwords. That modern Icelandic has similar vocabulary to the sagas, is because the 19th-century language reformers called for restoring old words. It wasn't because Icelandic had kept them the whole time. Modern Icelandic pronunciation, too, is vastly different from Old Norse, in spite…

It should also be noted that Icelandic has underwent spelling reforms to make the spelling more etymological.

It used to be spelled such that it better reflected the modern pronunciation, they at various points actually went back to spell based on older pronunciation, simply to make the language seem more archaic.

“ég” in Icelandic is pronounced “jeg”, and that is how it was spelled in the 1920's; they went back to “ég” simply to make it appear closer to Old Norse.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#57

Post by tptacek »

scottlocklin wrote: post #48

This is a ridiculous PR puff piece by her publisher, and even a vague perusal of the translation indicates it's an atrocity, which is exactly what you'd expect from a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition. https://newcriterion.com/issues/2020/12/cartes-de-visite "Maria Dahvana Headley’s new translation of Beowulf starts off like an exploding beer keg: “Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of…

a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition.

What the fuck does this mean?

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#58

Post by pmiller2 »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #55
pmiller2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Beowulf, that is very not true. We have an excellent idea of what the Anglo Saxon language would have sounded like, in part because it has close living relatives. Anglo Saxon and Old Norse were mutually intelligible. Conveniently, Iceland was settled by the Norsemen in the 9th century. Its geographic isolation contributed heavily to the Icelandic language's slow rate of change -- to the extent that if…

> We have an excellent idea of what the Anglo Saxon language would have sounded like, in part because it has close living relatives. The phonology is well reconstructed; that is not the issue. The issue is that it is not just a dead language, but a dead passive language which is only read, but never written, unlike, say Latin, which is both read and written — I seriously doubt that there are more than a handful of pe…

People do still write it, for fun: https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heafodtramet

Here's a more fluent reading, if you like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CpKlEiahtI

Enjoy it, don't enjoy it, hop in your time machine and go back to the 9th century to enjoy it; whatever floats your boat. Personally, I enjoy it, "pretentious" or not.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#59

Post by scottlocklin »

tptacek wrote: post #57
scottlocklin wrote: post #48

This is a ridiculous PR puff piece by her publisher, and even a vague perusal of the translation indicates it's an atrocity, which is exactly what you'd expect from a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition. https://newcriterion.com/issues/2020/12/cartes-de-visite "Maria Dahvana Headley’s new translation of Beowulf starts off like an exploding beer keg: “Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of…

a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition. What the fuck does this mean?

Seriously man, do you just follow me around and flag my comments? It means a weedy little narrow minded woman with no life experience of violence is probably incapable of writing about it, cabish?

Edit add: image googling you after your flagging of the comment, well, just lol. Must be tough.

Re: Beowulf: A New Translation

#60

Post by dang »

scottlocklin wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a "young adult writer" of her physiognomy and smug disposition. What the fuck does this mean?

Seriously man, do you just follow me around and flag my comments? It means a weedy little narrow minded woman with no life experience of violence is probably incapable of writing about it, cabish? Edit add: image googling you after your flagging of the comment, well, just lol. Must be tough.

Personal attacks are not allowed here and will get you banned here.

Obviously that's a bannable offense and I'm shocked and disgusted that you stooped to it. I wanted to think better of you.

We've put up with a ton of shit in your posts because (a) there's often a good point in there—even your point about the Beowulf translation would have been a good HN comment if you had cared to post it that way, and (b) I think highly of your technical comments and think HN would be poorer without them. But we can't have you abusing the site and other users like this; we've banned many accounts for less. I don't want to ban you, but if you don't fix this, there won't be a choice.

It's in your interest to use the site in the intended spirit, because poisoning HN (which is what your behavior, compounded, amounts to) is only going to ruin it as anything interesting. We have a hard enough time trying to prevent this place from sinking. I wince at its mediocrity already and it pains me that someone with the talent to really help it be good prefers instead to piss all over it the way you've been doing.

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