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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#181
post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking.

Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firms. The front cover this particular week was one such article and I had found it kind of funny, so I was showing it to my friend and we were discussing it.

Next to us in the restaurant was another table with an elderly gentlemen dining alone. Suddenly he leaned over and joined our conversation. It turned out he was some sort of economics academic and one of his 'research interests' was this question of why the EU doesn't generate tech firms. He had a lot of insight and I've never forgotten that discussion: it has influenced my thoughts about how to set up my own software firm.

One of the points he made is that outside the USA there's no real culture of granting early employees equity, whereas in the US tech industry that's standard. ARM is apparently one of the few exceptions, in which the co-founders did in fact hand out equity early on. The incentivising effect this produces is profound. I've felt it myself - when I joined a startup, having an ownership stake as well as a salary made the difference between doing the work, and genuinely caring about the company, being willing to get into arguments and fight for what was important, etc. So a culture gap with respect to ownership is perhaps one reason.

The man made other points that were more commonly observed, like the different approaches to regulation. A few days ago people were surprised to discover that the UK/EU Brexit treaty mandates SHA-1 for some obscure data interchange format. This is typical for the EU. In the US people at least pretend to care about the innovation-harming impact of regulation, even on the left. There's zero culture of that in the EU. The EU views more regulation as inherently good, and anything that isn't caked in hundreds of pages of regulations as being merely on the TODO list. It also brooks no dissent: one of the EU's "red lines" in the negotiations was that they didn't want the UK to undercut their "standards", defined as regulation. Any country that attempts to deregulate gets taken to court by the EU Commission itself, in its own courts, which almost always rule in favour of the Commission regardless of what the law actually says. This creates a one-way ratchet of ever more convoluted and obsolete rules, which in turn imposes a thicket of complexity costs on companies that have other things to focus on. Many of these rules are justified on the grounds of making trade easier but often have the opposite effect.

Finally there are the very real cultural aspects. The US/Valley culture practically celebrates failure. This isn't necessarily good - failure is still failure, but family and friends at least seem to be pretty supportive of entrepreneurs in general and "failure" is very flexibly defined. For instance creating a company that never makes money isn't a problem in the US thanks to a mix of this culture and bottomless VC money. Whereas that would be perceived as failure by family and friends in Europe.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#182
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not familiar with successful EU initiative. The EU Cohesion Fund is one. Since 2007, ~133 billion € got invested in the poorer countries of the EU to improve trans-european traffic infrastructure (TEN, aka road, rail, waterways) and environmental projects (e.g. villages hooked up to proper sewage pipes with treatment plants at the end, instead of dumping sewage to the groundwater / into rivers and seas).

Yet after spending 133 billion € the vast majority of Romanian, Bulgarian and many more countries villages do not have sewage pipes for example

Is this actually true?

I've visited several small towns in Romania, and all plumbing was in good order. It's not like a country stuck in 15th century. Are you talking about 'villages' of like 5 people?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#183

So, we're getting an Airbus for Chips? Or will it more be like our Ariane missiles?

>Or will it more be like our Ariane missiles? It's rude to call it a missile just because they launched one on the wrong azimuth recently. ;-) Also given the success rate of the related Vega rocket, it would not be a very dependable missile anyway.

Yes, isnt it normally called a launcher?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#184

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

Bagger 293 probably is the most expensive machine. It costs $100M to build one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_293

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#185
post #85

Good news. Yes, as with all government money, there is some pork barreling involved, but there is a long history of such government initiatives laying the starting seed for high tech industry development. It means money is invested in Europe tied to a certain purpose. Giving talented engineers a job perspective and companies a field in which they can invest into.

there is a long history of such government initiatives laying the starting seed for high tech industry development

However, not in the EU. The EU has been engaging in massive subsidisation for decades and has little to show for it. In some places it seems to have led to a hollowed out society in which companies that are supposedly startups spend all their time chasing grant money instead of building real products.

VC investment is hard work. The EU isn't a well run VC firm even though it deploys more capital than such firms do, and it shows: they don't really care what the money gets spent on as long as there's a paper trail they can use to do ass-covering if it turns out the money was lost to fraud. So it creates this USSR-like culture of zombie firms that can't really survive independent of state funding.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#186
post #45

2nm tech, and not only just the tech, but the whole fab for it in two-three years? that how eu is spending 145 billions while allocating 1bn to fighting covid?

> allocating 1bn to fighting covid No sure what you mean here. Seems like the EU recovery package is €1,824B. Also, in Sept and Oct they allocated €87.9B in financial support.

the SURE are bonds, not grants, idk why are you putting these on the table, from the tax payer pov bonds are just temporary transfers, it's the grants that will 'disappear'

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#187
post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

That's how we got to the current cutting edge. Research of most important technological inventions of the past century was funded by beaurocrats. Market is only good at figuring out how to make things cheaper and in volume. Both very important things. But true scientific breakthroughs that push the business over next decades happen on taxpayers bill as distributed by beaurocrats. It sucks a bit that it's this way but…

Research of most important technological inventions of the past century was funded by beaurocrats

Important defined how?

The car wasn't. The mobile phone wasn't. Computers in their post-WW2 form basically weren't, for the last half decade if not more it's all been private sector. Yes, DARPA did some very early work on packet switching networks and their work became widely adopted mostly because it was free: nice. But the moment these inventions started to matter, all R&D was taken over by the private sector.

Governments spray so much money at things that I'm sure for almost any broad category of thing, you can find something they funded. But that's no evidence that stuff would never have been researched anyway, given the enormous and long term R&D efforts routinely mounted by non governmental entities. Look at AI: government funded institutions are constantly lagging behind.

It sucks a bit that it's this way but if you are profit driven, you can't gamble 140 billion of your own money in hopes of developing new tech.

Alphabet alone spends something like $21 billion on R&D per year. It doesn't take many years of that to reach $140 billion, and Alphabet is not the only company doing basic research.

Having spent many years reading research papers coming out of both academia and industry, my conclusion has been that the best papers are always those with corporate funding - some academic teams receive partly corporate funding and these tend to be in the middle, pure corporate labs tend to do the most exciting work. The bureaucrat-distributed money often gets allocated for decades to intellectual dead ends nobody cares about, purely through inertia and lack of institutional incentives to maximise ROI.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#188
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always been normal in the EU. There is little innovation here based on private risk taking, almost no venture capital, and huge barrieres for banks to lend money to innovators.

The fact that its practically impossible to legally invest and create a business in the EU makes that almost inevitable

EU haters much, eh? It takes 30 mins to 3 hours to establish[1] an LLC in EU (Estonia).

[1] https://investinestonia.com/business-in-estonia/establishing...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#189
post #130
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has the tech, but that's not enough. I won't say the whole budget will be wasted away, but I hold no hope of something useful coming out of it. The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players. And they are moderately confortable in their niches. This is a very high risk endeavour, even with EU money. And as far as I know, none…

> The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players. They don't need to become major players for this program to be a major success. Both India's and China's push for a native self-sufficient industrial capabilities have been a huge success in spite of not delivering a cutting edge processor. Moreover, AMD showed that right now the key…

What? You are basically discount AMD design. The manufacturing and process tech are critical but not enough alone. You need good design.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#190

I might have looked positively at this if the bureaucrats would have actual skin in the game and would be judged by the outcome in 5-10 years. But in the likely case that this will fail and most of the money will be drained through lobbyism etc., nobody will talk about it and they will come up with the next thing they can throw money at to come across as being super innovative. Disclaimer: I used to work at a company…

Maybe you could use your experience to propose a system (whether funding vehicle restrictions or proper incentives) for that not to happen in this case? I think we’d all be excited by that. How can we avoid spending money on lobbyists? Maybe the structure should be more VC-like?

An option to try is making a mixed merit+vote system instead of just voting.
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