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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#131

Post by singhrac »

WanderPanda wrote: post #82

I might have looked positively at this if the bureaucrats would have actual skin in the game and would be judged by the outcome in 5-10 years. But in the likely case that this will fail and most of the money will be drained through lobbyism etc., nobody will talk about it and they will come up with the next thing they can throw money at to come across as being super innovative. Disclaimer: I used to work at a company…

Maybe you could use your experience to propose a system (whether funding vehicle restrictions or proper incentives) for that not to happen in this case? I think we’d all be excited by that.

How can we avoid spending money on lobbyists? Maybe the structure should be more VC-like?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#132

Post by baybal2 »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

> TWINSCAN NXE:3400C is probably the most expensive machine in the world.

Unfortunately no. A number of pieces of military hardware produced in bigger numbers will leave even that pricetag in the dust.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#133

Post by ju-st »

m4rtink wrote: post #109
WanderPanda wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean that resource wasting shop, that is sending huge airplane parts all across Europe for political reasons? I don’t even want to start about the subsidies considered illegal by the wto...

Well, it seems to be competitive with Boeing & no one else really stepped up doing it the "proper" way so far.

Well, Boeing is doing the same things. Transporting 737 fuselages through the US and illegal subsidies. And I'm not even mentioning the 737 debacle.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#134

Post by lvice »

baxtr wrote: post #30
simias wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a tiresome and self-defeating mindset. If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Of course politics and lobbying will play a role when we're talking about hundreds of billions of euros, but that doesn't mean that it can't end up being a net positive for the union. Ask for transparency and keep tabs, don't assume that it's already lost.

Can you name examples of EU initiatives on that level that delivered the desired results? EDIT: I am asking because I seriously want to know. I haven’t made up my mind yet what to think about the whole thing. I am not familiar with successful EU initiatives. I’m open in believing this can work if there were successful examples in the past.

I think the Erasmus initiative is an outstanding EU programme, which helped collaboration between EU universities and to build a EU identity for young educated students. It's not an economic initiative per se, and it's hard to measure its effective results objectively, but I believe it's been an absolute net positive for the EU.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#135

Post by nickpp »

tsimionescu wrote: post #56
xiphias2 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU’s decreasing GDP share in the world shows that EU is wasting lots of money by trying to pick winners. Just having low tax for small tech companies like in Shanghai would incentivize people to work on new great ideas, but I don’t see it happening.

Technology is always pushed by states, not small companies. Small companies can figure out how to market and reduce costs, but have never successfully created new, advanced technology.

Saying this while waiting for the new savior vaccine with a brand new mRNA technology pushed by two startups: Moderna & BioNTech is just... funny.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#136

Post by baybal2 »

skrebbel wrote: post #71
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

> I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning.

Does that even marginally matter?

Even after Brexit, both EU, and UK will remain open economies, unless you believe a conspiracy theory that Boris is a closet communist.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#137

Post by rusk »

ginko wrote: post #89
iagovar wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but that's ARM IP though. There's a window of opportunity with RISC V, but something tells me that the fact it's open source rubs against some people.

>Yeah but that's ARM IP though. How does this matter? Do you think ARM won't license their IP to European chip makers?

Are ARM still Japanese? I think there’s a pretty solid trade agreement between the EU and Japan ...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#138

Post by rsynnott »

baxtr wrote: post #30
simias wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a tiresome and self-defeating mindset. If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Of course politics and lobbying will play a role when we're talking about hundreds of billions of euros, but that doesn't mean that it can't end up being a net positive for the union. Ask for transparency and keep tabs, don't assume that it's already lost.

Can you name examples of EU initiatives on that level that delivered the desired results? EDIT: I am asking because I seriously want to know. I haven’t made up my mind yet what to think about the whole thing. I am not familiar with successful EU initiatives. I’m open in believing this can work if there were successful examples in the past.

Airbus is the obvious one; successfully broke a foreign near-monopoly. TSMC would be playing the role of Boeing, here.

I'm not sure if this will work, but I do think that something needs to be done by _someone_, even if not Europe. TSMC having a global near-monopoly on high-end fab is obviously not long-term viable. That's a bad situation for _everyone_.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#139

Post by Shorel »

rapsey wrote: post #80
sgift wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you show where Horizon2020 squandered money? Or gave any other reason to bash the EU?

I know of two companies getting money. The first ones entire business model is EU funds. They “make” only the necessary burocratic documentation. They have zero intentions of producing anything. The other is large and dirty af with bribes. If you try to compete with them for EU grants, you are going to get an investigation into your business for misspending EU funds. Because they know the right people.

At the very least mention the countries these companies are based on.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#140

Post by credit_guy »

So, first thing when it comes to big dollar (or in this case Euro) numbers: some of these funds will be loans, not grants. In this case the split will be about 50-50.

Second, this is not new money, this is part of recovery funds already allocated in July 2020 for combating the economic recession created by the Coronavirus [1]. These funds were already earmarked for environmental and digital initiatives. This declaration is probably a clarification of how much is given specifically to the digital initiatives.

This looks quite smart to me. In the US neither the original CARES act ($1.4 TN) passed in March, nor the new stimulus bill ($0.9 TN) has any funds dedicated to cutting edge industries. There were instead funds for airline companies and cruise lines.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_EU#Recovery_fu...

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