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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#121

Post by _ph_ »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #67
wwwwwwwww wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. SpaceX was almost completely privately invested and private risk. Once they had shown that they were serious, NASA awarded them contracts, because it was a great deal for NASA, compared to what they would pay otherwise. Its sad to see these kind of attempts to trash talk the SpaceX achievements.

It’s so strange to read a comment like this one. They have the facts but completely miss how the facts connect with each other. Yes, Space X is a private company but they wouldn’t exist without the innovations that came out of NASA, a publicly funded organization.

And of course the market. The supply contract for the ISS gave SpaceX the necessary money to grow, without public money no ISS, and as a consequence, no supply contract.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#122

Post by FpUser »

imtringued wrote: post #83
FpUser wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it looks more like they're trying to get more technological independence. Right now they're at the mercy of the US and China in many areas and as the result are target to political pressure. Reducing one's dependency does not hurt.

It doesn't hurt but it's not an economic miracle either, it's a luxury if it isn't self sustaining.

How do you know it will not sustain itself further down the road.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#123

Post by FartyMcFarter »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

Look at it and ponder how amazing it is that we've built this with our monkey brains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdMRUG69uc

So many disciplines of engineering going into this machine!

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#124

Post by newdude116 »

elric wrote: post #68
rapsey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horizon2020 for instance

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

Great. Sounds very different from the very corrupt SBIR grants.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#126

Post by baybal2 »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

> ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight.

And not a small part to gigantic speculative expectations around tech sector in general, which seem to have crossed the Atlantic this year.

So much speculative interest has never been a good thing as we know.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#127

Post by dagaci »

zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

Just like those EU CERN bureaucrats funding Tim Berners-Lee, what were they thinking

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#128

Post by throw0101a »

yvdriess wrote: post #74
scotty79 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how we got to the current cutting edge. Research of most important technological inventions of the past century was funded by beaurocrats. Market is only good at figuring out how to make things cheaper and in volume. Both very important things. But true scientific breakthroughs that push the business over next decades happen on taxpayers bill as distributed by beaurocrats. It sucks a bit that it's this way but…

Yep, this cannot be repeated enough. Government funding is how a lot of innovations happen, but it's not as visible as a private company bringing that innovation to market. To put in optimization terms, private companies are good at following the gradient. Government funding is necessary to escape the well and find new minimas.

> Government funding is how a lot of innovations happen, but it's not as visible as a private company bringing that innovation to market.

A recent example of 'basic' research coming to fruition in a practical fashion (eventually):

> "S glycoprotein signal peptide (extended leader sequence), which guides translocation of the nascent polypeptide chain into the endoplasmic reticulum" - part of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. I don't ever want to hear anyone question fundamental science again. 1/2

> The level of control and understanding we now have over our biology came from literally millions of person-years spent working on things that at the time were obscure and "useless". And now? We can leverage all this into a 95% efficient vaccine _at the first try_. 2/2

* https://twitter.com/PowerDNS_Bert/status/1342159339767934978

We have no way of knowing ahead of time what knowledge will be needed or "useful" in the future, so in some ways it is prudent to try to acquire as much knowledge of the natural world as possible and sort it out later.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#129

Post by geogra4 »

Nokinside wrote: post #103
skrebbel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

ARM IP, even full architectural license, is relatively small percentage of the cost of a semiconductor. Know-how for fables microarchitecture designs is widely distributed. Most fabless work goes to specialized asics. It's the inability for SMIC to obtain EUV lithography equipment for their sub-7nm process technologies from ASML that prevents China from getting into high-end semiconductors, not the domestic microarch…

Does that change with the China eu trade deal?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#130

Post by rualca »

iagovar wrote: post #69
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

The EU has the tech, but that's not enough. I won't say the whole budget will be wasted away, but I hold no hope of something useful coming out of it. The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players. And they are moderately confortable in their niches. This is a very high risk endeavour, even with EU money. And as far as I know, none…

> The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players.

They don't need to become major players for this program to be a major success. Both India's and China's push for a native self-sufficient industrial capabilities have been a huge success in spite of not delivering a cutting edge processor.

Moreover, AMD showed that right now the key factor to develop a product line that dominates all competitors in all categories, from performance to power efficiency and also price, is access to a capable manufacturing hub.

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