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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#71

Post by skrebbel »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips.

As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer.

I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next Apple).

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#72

Post by djbebs »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #53
zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

It's always been normal in the EU. There is little innovation here based on private risk taking, almost no venture capital, and huge barrieres for banks to lend money to innovators.

The fact that its practically impossible to legally invest and create a business in the EU makes that almost inevitable

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#73

Post by LudwigNagasena »

yulaow wrote: post #28
rapsey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mindset is born out of seeing how the game is played and where the money goes from past initiatives. Why would this one be in any way different? To quote a very rich and slimey asshole I’ve interacted with who’s income is largely from such initiatives. It’s just money for papers.

Almost any "federal government" branch in any national or transnational entity works that way. They still get results good enough to push technology forward by encouraging parallel private investments. I mean the whole USA tech sector was basically bootstrapped by federal money/grants/investments given in no different way of what EU is doing right now.

> USA tech sector was basically bootstrapped by federal money/grants/investments given in no different way of what EU is doing right now

There are MANY different ways to channel money into business or non-profit R&D. I doubt you can ignore all the differences and declare that what the US and the EU do or did is the same.

I am not saying it doesn’t exist, but I am personally not aware of any similar multibillion declaration made by the US.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#74

Post by yvdriess »

scotty79 wrote: post #31
zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

That's how we got to the current cutting edge. Research of most important technological inventions of the past century was funded by beaurocrats. Market is only good at figuring out how to make things cheaper and in volume. Both very important things. But true scientific breakthroughs that push the business over next decades happen on taxpayers bill as distributed by beaurocrats. It sucks a bit that it's this way but…

Yep, this cannot be repeated enough. Government funding is how a lot of innovations happen, but it's not as visible as a private company bringing that innovation to market.

To put in optimization terms, private companies are good at following the gradient. Government funding is necessary to escape the well and find new minimas.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#75

Post by ginko »

skrebbel wrote: post #71
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

>I think much of the relevant chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning.

The larger ARM Cortex cores are still designed to a large degree in Southern France.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#76

Post by _ph_ »

iagovar wrote: post #54
nikivi wrote: post #3

Are there any companies in EU who are developing chips now? I only know ASML but that only makes the wafers. I ask as I can't imagine the government doing this. So there must be some company behind this deal.

NXP, Infineon and STM are the three major in Europe, although STM is Swiss/Italian.

STM is also very strongly French.

And these three are only the largest pure-semiconductor companies. There are many dozens of smaller companies and quite some fabs. A lot of automotive electronics is done by European companies. Also, many international semiconductor companies have development sites in Europe.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#77

Post by ginko »

imtringued wrote: post #64

I'd like to see more government investment into domestic industries, however I believe that the semiconductor manufacturing market is already heavily saturated. R&D is welcome but beyond ensuring independence from foreign manufacturing there are not that many benefits that you would expect from this example of government stimulus. This industry primarily hires high skilled workers but unless they also directly fund t…

>however I believe that the semiconductor manufacturing market is already heavily saturated

Is it? It seems to be headed for a TSMC monopoly as far as I can see.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#78

Post by hmottestad »

skrebbel wrote: post #71
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

Both AMD and Apple Are fabless, so maybe The EU can partner with them like how Apple has partnered with TSMC.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#79

Post by hydroreadsstuff »

nikivi wrote: post #3

Are there any companies in EU who are developing chips now? I only know ASML but that only makes the wafers. I ask as I can't imagine the government doing this. So there must be some company behind this deal.

Infineon, X-Fab (formerly ZMD) are coming to my mind.

Not sure you would include foreign companies with plants in the EU. Nexperia, TI, GloFo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...

Aside from that I'd expected chip designers like ARM (+licensees), Bull Atos (would you call that an OEM?) and related software companies to take part in this.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#80

Post by rapsey »

sgift wrote: post #39
rapsey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horizon2020 for instance

Can you show where Horizon2020 squandered money? Or gave any other reason to bash the EU?

I know of two companies getting money. The first ones entire business model is EU funds. They “make” only the necessary burocratic documentation. They have zero intentions of producing anything. The other is large and dirty af with bribes.

If you try to compete with them for EU grants, you are going to get an investigation into your business for misspending EU funds. Because they know the right people.

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