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Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

ajkesslerblog.com

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Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#141

Post by FrojoS »

Obviously this article has hit a nerve. Its true, the tone is somewhat rude and I don't agree with all he says, but I'm happy about the discussions. I'm a cheap bastard and so are most of my friends. But I used to be the cheapest. Hell, in my climbing bum days before Uni, I even got called "cheap bastard" by fellow climbers on the campsite!

However, I'm changing. More into the direction that the author proposes. This year, I got a Mac. It was almost forced on me by a friend. I always liked Apple products but thought the price/value was just not good enough for a poor student. I think I was wrong. I never want to go back. I would probably clean toilets to afford a Mac if I have to.

The author touches an important point, especially for aspring entrepreneurs, when he says: "Using well designed stuff reinforces the mindset of earning and creating. “Man, the world needs more well designed and well made stuff like this.” “Man, I’m going to earn more so I can have more well designed and well made stuff like this.”" I couldn't agree more. How can you get costumers to buy quality from you if you don't choose quality over price in your daily life? Its hard to build something, that you have no experience with.

One advantage of buying cheap, though, is that its easier to get rid of them later. Hence, you might feel more freedom and flexibility. However, I'm starting to pay attention to aspects like weight and robustness so I don't have to leave them behind when I leave. What I really want to get rid of the next time I move is all the cheap stuff. On the other hand, having lots of cheap stuff is a good reservoir for hacks!

I also agree with the author on "The mental aspect [being cheap] is huge." I'm trying to get rid of this problem, too. In the last month I've bought two free Apps [1] on online stores. I just felt they were worth the money. Later, when I learned this was actually true, I checked for the license and was pleased to see they where under GPL and Apache 2.0

[1] touch.txt for Android ($2) and Brisk ($15) for the Mac

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#142

Post by bradleyland »

kerryfalk wrote: post #135
dkarl wrote: post #121

I think I may already practice everything this blog post tells me to, but I still feel insulted, both on my behalf and on behalf of people I know. The author comes off as a real dick. I can't point to any recommendation in the post I specifically disagree with, but I'm pretty confident if he met me he'd find some reason to think I'm a loser. And my whole family. And most of my friends. Maybe it's because I don't take…

I couldn't read past "I'm not worth it" . Based on that and your reply here it just seems as though the author is materialistic. They're defining their worth by the quantity and quality of the goods they possess. I don't see how that's a healthy attitude. I'm probably on an extreme end of the spectrum as I'm pretty minimalistic and don't have many possessions but those I do have are typically of higher quality. I don…

I read the piece through to the end, and while I don't really like the way he presented it -- there's no need to call anyone a loser -- there is an important message to be shared. That is: care about the experience you give yourself. You clearly get this. Sometimes having fewer possessions results in the experience that we value more. Your views might share more with the author than it appears on the surface.

Where the author and I differ is that I don't always believe "spending more" is the key. More appropriately, spend where it matters. As a corollary, don't spend where it matters as well.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#143

Post by lsc »

gaius wrote: post #140
reinhardt wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The peace of mind that comes with owning disposable or easily replaceable stuff is priceless. Every item I have to spend time and effort maintaining and worry about losing or damaging it is another golden ball and chain around my carefreeness.

But do you not see the externality there? Every "disposable" thing you own started life in a sweatshop and is destined for a landfill. Beyond a certain point, deliberately buying disposable instead of lifetime is just plain irresponsible.

not always. For instance, I buy "disposable" cars. My personal rule is "Don't spend more than a month's salary" which means I buy used.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#144

Post by dkarl »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #137
kerryfalk wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't read past "I'm not worth it" . Based on that and your reply here it just seems as though the author is materialistic. They're defining their worth by the quantity and quality of the goods they possess. I don't see how that's a healthy attitude. I'm probably on an extreme end of the spectrum as I'm pretty minimalistic and don't have many possessions but those I do have are typically of higher quality. I don…

Not quite; the point was, better stuff will last longer, you never have to replace it. It was a utilitarian argument.

No, he did point out some false economies, but the main thrust was the psychological effect of feeling that you've bought nice things for yourself. Buy yourself nice things, then you feel like a princess, and that feeling of self-worth rubs off on the rest of your life. The problem with it is that there's an ugly logic that you can't avoid. If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when I don't get what I want?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when I want something I can never have?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when others have more than me?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when others have less than me?

If you could isolate the positive, useful aspect -- "I got what I want, and therefore I'm a worthy person" -- then there would be nothing wrong with it. It's good and useful to believe you're a worthy person. Unfortunately, your brain has a certain capacity for logic (even if you're not an engineer or programmer type of person :-P) and you can't prevent it proceeding from that benign intention to its ugly logical reflection. It's logically a zero-sum game, and some of the logically "neutral" effects (assuming a rich person is more worthy than a poor person could be seen as logically neutral) are not really neutral because they are unjust.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#145

Post by chollida1 »

danssig wrote: post #53
yason wrote: post #24

I don't think that being frugal has ever been about going cheap. Frugality is not about consuming but investing in your life: that often contradicts with cheap. Frugality is about not buying things you don't need but buying things you can't live without. A frugal person will typically invest in quality because he knows he'll be using the item for years and doesn't want to replace it every few. I wouldn't consider mys…

I think the disconnect here is your use of the term frugal. In the US (at least the south) every time I've ever heard anyone say they were frugal they meant they were cheap. They would buy the cheapest possible thing and use it well past the point it was presentable. I've even heard such people claim the cheaper thing must be better quality because it's cheaper. Sadly, I'm not even exaggerating.

> In the US (at least the south) every time I've ever heard anyone say they were frugal they meant they were cheap.

Interesting.

In Canada, I've lived in Ontario, Alberta and BC. In each province frugal means someone who spends money wisely.

ie buying a Toyota Camry instead of a BMW

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#146

Post by keeptrying »

gdulli wrote: post #128
keeptrying wrote: post #18

It's simple. Just count the number of hours you use an item in a week. Anything you use for a large part of the week should be of high quality. Bed, office chair, desk, computer screen, computer, cooking utensils if you cook a lot, phone - in my case. My car is 10 years old and doesn't have an a/c but I use it irregularly for Kiteboarding purposes and don't care. In essence, it's much harder to bear a small pain for…

That's not a good metric. Everyone sleeps in their bed for a lot of hours per week but only a subset of people are sensitive to discomfort or back issues. Why does anyone spend their time coming up with rules for what other people should do in situations that are inherently based on personal values?

If you don't buy a good bed you'll develop back issues. And actually the majority of sedentary workers will have back issues in their lives so it's even more important.

This rule works for me and since it's not actually straight forward to figure out, I thought it would help others.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#148

Post by dkarl »

danssig wrote: post #53
yason wrote: post #24

I don't think that being frugal has ever been about going cheap. Frugality is not about consuming but investing in your life: that often contradicts with cheap. Frugality is about not buying things you don't need but buying things you can't live without. A frugal person will typically invest in quality because he knows he'll be using the item for years and doesn't want to replace it every few. I wouldn't consider mys…

I think the disconnect here is your use of the term frugal. In the US (at least the south) every time I've ever heard anyone say they were frugal they meant they were cheap. They would buy the cheapest possible thing and use it well past the point it was presentable. I've even heard such people claim the cheaper thing must be better quality because it's cheaper. Sadly, I'm not even exaggerating.

It's an intentional rhetorical device. For the opposite take on frugality, you can read In Cheap We Trust: The Story of a Misunderstood American Virtue.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#149

Post by Jach »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #137
kerryfalk wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't read past "I'm not worth it" . Based on that and your reply here it just seems as though the author is materialistic. They're defining their worth by the quantity and quality of the goods they possess. I don't see how that's a healthy attitude. I'm probably on an extreme end of the spectrum as I'm pretty minimalistic and don't have many possessions but those I do have are typically of higher quality. I don…

Not quite; the point was, better stuff will last longer, you never have to replace it. It was a utilitarian argument.

Really? It's a poorly framed one with questionable premises (better quality stuff doesn't always mean the higher priced item), as well as extrapolating his utility function onto that of any reader. For example:

> So what if they’re $100. Unless you’re some sort of foot messenger, you only need to buy one pair a year.

Or buy $30 shoes that last 2 years and are subjectively just as comfortable. Maybe if you're a foot messenger you need better shoes (or go shoeless), maybe if you have bad feet or a bad back you need expensive shoes with Dr. Shoels. Another example?

> Buy scented candle or some potpourri and a stack of washcloths for your bathroom counter. It smells awesome and you feel great when you grab a fresh towel to wash your face every day.

I hate that crap. My point is that people have different utility functions.

Re: Being Frugal Makes You A Loser

#150

Post by saturdaysaint »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #138
saturdaysaint wrote: post #132

There are studies that indicate that runners wearing $100+ shoes are much more prone to injury than runners wearing sub-$50 shoes. In fact, what's initially "comfortable" insulates our feet from important physical signals, leading to a lot of physical pain. (read the recent, excellent book "Born To Run" if you find this interesting) My point is that not thinking about decisions "makes you a loser", and equating price…

And since when did homo sapiens evolve to need a $600 matress? Folks around the world sleep on a futon, or the floor. Do they all get terrible sleep? Or do they adapt.

...or do they actually, in many circumstances, thrive because we've evolved to live under "thrifty" pre-industrial conditions? In the book I referenced (Born To Run), the author describes an extremely isolated Mexican tribe where 40-50 year old men regularly run 50-mile plus races in bare feet, in good part, many believe, because they've shunned shoes. I wouldn't be surprised if we come to the same conclusion about mattresses.

Again, I'm just throwing this in because I think it's best to think flexibly. I also often argue that it makes perfect sense to splurge on a $60 massage or a $75 per person meal every now and then because memorable experiences are surprisingly valuable and more permanent (in one's mind) than they might appear to the impulsively thrifty consumer.

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