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The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

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Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#81

Post by garmaine »

generalizations wrote: post #32
koheripbal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to imagine a physical product that is worth transporting on an interstellar level, rather than locally manufactured. It seems to me that the only thing that would ever be exchanged between solar systems, would be information.

If we cannot assume the distribution of elements across solar systems is homogenous, I imagine there might be some other system largely composed of heavy or noble elements we have a hard time obtaining locally. Edit: come to think of it, interstellar trade might become necessary once we start building at larger scales - moon sized space stations, asteroid-sized interstellar ships, etc. That's a lot of material to min…

> That's a lot of material to mine, and it might be easier to import it.

That’s an energetically impossible claim.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#82

Post by jhallenworld »

ghaff wrote: post #66
generalizations wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we cannot assume the distribution of elements across solar systems is homogenous, I imagine there might be some other system largely composed of heavy or noble elements we have a hard time obtaining locally. Edit: come to think of it, interstellar trade might become necessary once we start building at larger scales - moon sized space stations, asteroid-sized interstellar ships, etc. That's a lot of material to min…

The elements point is an interesting one. I'm trying to imagine what element or group of elements would be hard to do without. The elements related to carbon-based life of course (although hydrogen at least is not realistically scarce)--though I guess life doesn't need to be carbon-based. There are the conductive metals--gold, silver, copper--although aluminum at least could fill in in a pinch. Silicon? Although you'…

Our solar system is supposedly rich with phosphorus, but maybe any solar system with life would also be so blessed..

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17649-9

Another one might be uranium.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#83

Post by blululu »

ghaff wrote: post #66
generalizations wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we cannot assume the distribution of elements across solar systems is homogenous, I imagine there might be some other system largely composed of heavy or noble elements we have a hard time obtaining locally. Edit: come to think of it, interstellar trade might become necessary once we start building at larger scales - moon sized space stations, asteroid-sized interstellar ships, etc. That's a lot of material to min…

The elements point is an interesting one. I'm trying to imagine what element or group of elements would be hard to do without. The elements related to carbon-based life of course (although hydrogen at least is not realistically scarce)--though I guess life doesn't need to be carbon-based. There are the conductive metals--gold, silver, copper--although aluminum at least could fill in in a pinch. Silicon? Although you'…

Well something like platinum could be an important element (catalyses a lot of necessary processes). Its abundance will vary by a large amount across start systems. The earth is relatively rich in the element, so it is likely that we would have a comparative advantage here, but there could also be places like asteroids that have much greater amounts of this metal than us but smaller supplies of essential elements like phosphorous.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#84

Post by bemmu »

phreeza wrote: post #21
koheripbal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to imagine a physical product that is worth transporting on an interstellar level, rather than locally manufactured. It seems to me that the only thing that would ever be exchanged between solar systems, would be information.

I've probably read too much sci-fi, but high-density computronium left behind by a fallen civilization might make it worthwhile?

What sci-fi would you recommend if I want to read more about this computronium?

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#85

Post by credit_guy »

nabla9 wrote: post #5

The article was written in 1978 but it references paper: Krugman, P.,"Theory Capital and Travel Light-than-Faster", prosessed, Yale University, 1987 (The writer also received a Nobel for his contributions to the theory of international trade and economic geography).

I guess the joke is that if one travels faster than light, then time gets reversed. Hence the title "Faster-than-light Travel and Capital Theory" gets inverted too. Oh, and obviously, if time reversal is possible, then you can make reference to articles published in the future.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#86

Post by btouellette »

bemmu wrote: post #84
phreeza wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've probably read too much sci-fi, but high-density computronium left behind by a fallen civilization might make it worthwhile?

What sci-fi would you recommend if I want to read more about this computronium?

Some of the later books in the Culture series (most directly The Hydrogen Sonata) deal with civilizations trying to get a leg up on the galactic tech ladder by scavenging the leavings of older civilizations that have "sublimed" and left the physical realm.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#87

Post by tw25592285 »

In terms of the overall market process, a lender and a borrower experiencing different time spans is equivalent to a lender and a borrower having different time preferences [1].

Those with the shortest time preferences will borrow at higher interest rates; those with the longest time preferences will lend at lower interest rates.

All the math about clocks and reference frames is just scientism.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#88

Post by drran »

bluGill wrote: post #72
mybandisbetter wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is at least possible that a manufacturing ecosystem would be so difficult to develop that it would require fewer decades to transport products than to develop that ecosystem. Such comparative advantage would likely disappear overtime, unless a given solar system actively keeps its technological know-how secret in some way, or controls the travel of skilled people (as in nuclear tech today). Or, perhaps, some solar…

It is hard to imangine that smart people in the other solar system won't figure things out. The physics of nuclear is mostly known, which is why Iran and North Korea can have nuclear programs despite efforts to stop it. Anything secret that is exported to a different solar system is reverse engineerable. The first colonists will of course need to bring stuff with them, but it doesn't make sense to assume they won't p…

> The first colonists will of course need to bring stuff with them

IMHO, first thing sent will be a universal Assembler, which will produce stuff and clone colonists. If a woman can give birth to a baby in 9 months, we can create a "3D printer" which will self assemble other "3D printers", which then produce mechanisms, computers, and colonists.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#89

Post by admax88q »

generalizations wrote: post #78
ghaff wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elements point is an interesting one. I'm trying to imagine what element or group of elements would be hard to do without. The elements related to carbon-based life of course (although hydrogen at least is not realistically scarce)--though I guess life doesn't need to be carbon-based. There are the conductive metals--gold, silver, copper--although aluminum at least could fill in in a pinch. Silicon? Although you'…

Stuff on the far right of the periodic table seems like prime candidates also, just because they're easy to lose and probably some of the hardest to obtain. Helium is basically a limited resource unless we figure out how to get it back out of the upper atmosphere; same goes for the argon we use for fire suppression - that stuff is already super expensive.

Argon and Helium are pretty stable though. It's probably cheaper to recover them from our atmosphere than to ship them from another planet altogether.

Re: The Theory of Interstellar Trade (1978)

#90

Post by ghaff »

generalizations wrote: post #78
ghaff wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elements point is an interesting one. I'm trying to imagine what element or group of elements would be hard to do without. The elements related to carbon-based life of course (although hydrogen at least is not realistically scarce)--though I guess life doesn't need to be carbon-based. There are the conductive metals--gold, silver, copper--although aluminum at least could fill in in a pinch. Silicon? Although you'…

Stuff on the far right of the periodic table seems like prime candidates also, just because they're easy to lose and probably some of the hardest to obtain. Helium is basically a limited resource unless we figure out how to get it back out of the upper atmosphere; same goes for the argon we use for fire suppression - that stuff is already super expensive.

I'd assume if you can do interstellar travel, you can fuse hydrogen into helium. The other 8A elements? They're useful for various things but, in part because they are non-reactive, I'm not sure how essential they are for anything.
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