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Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

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Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#61

Post by analog31 »

I work in a small R&D team within a larger engineering organization. I use Python, and it has spread to the rest of my team. However, I've tried to share tools that I've written in Python with the engineers. The problem is that I have to hand-hold them through the process of getting Python working on their computer at the level of detail of: Here is how you find the Python editor. Double click on it. Click on "open." Find the Python file. Click on "run." Click on "Run Module." Or you can press F5. No, you have to be in the editor when you press F5. Now do you see that a window just appeared? Look at the entries and buttons in the window...

It's really quite harrowing. Whereas if I put the same thing in an Excel file, they can bring it up themselves and I can quickly walk them through using it.

And I don't think my UI's are all that bad. But going from throwing together a simple Tkinter GUI, to something that is totally user proof and self installing is actually quite a lot of work.

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#62

Post by bluedino »

analog31 wrote: post #61

I work in a small R&D team within a larger engineering organization. I use Python, and it has spread to the rest of my team. However, I've tried to share tools that I've written in Python with the engineers. The problem is that I have to hand-hold them through the process of getting Python working on their computer at the level of detail of: Here is how you find the Python editor. Double click on it. Click on "open."…

Imagine them the first time they used Excel

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#63

Post by trimbo »

SoSoRoCoCo wrote: post #30
yold__ wrote: post #26

I'm a research actuary working in reinsurance. Here is why I think Python creates more problems than it solves from the standpoint of most insurance business users: 1.) Environment management. There are many solutions for managing python dependencies, my favorite is Docker + pip. Good luck getting actuaries and underwriters to write Dockerfiles etc, and good luck getting I.T. to support Docker on Windows desktops. Li…

It is great that you respond with succinct reasons. People who have used Python for some years seem to forget just how clunky it really is. I've been using Excel since 1990, and sure, it has its own warts, but Python is a very rudimentary tool compared to Excel. Python is a machine shop. Excel is a car. It may be a lemon, but it's a functional car. This is a great example of programmers not being able to see the fore…

> Reminds me of the "Once Linux gets a desktop it will take over the world" debate from circa 1997-today.

Linux did take over the world, just not on the desktop. It was on servers and mobile, which now have more users than desktops or laptops (edit: servers via the web).

Technology gets its warts fixed when it grows along an explosive new market, especially if the market ends up being larger than the last.

Python is currently riding the data science wave, and that wave is growing. If that market expands to the point where large scale data-science type work wags the dog of VBA/excel, the clunkiness[1] will work itself out.

[1] - I don't actually understand what's clunky about Python in the context of the article. Seems like a reasonable direction in a complex market (reinsurance) driven by actuaries. I'd be surprised if newgrad actuaries/stats people aren't using Python?

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#64

Post by shmoogy »

analog31 wrote: post #61

I work in a small R&D team within a larger engineering organization. I use Python, and it has spread to the rest of my team. However, I've tried to share tools that I've written in Python with the engineers. The problem is that I have to hand-hold them through the process of getting Python working on their computer at the level of detail of: Here is how you find the Python editor. Double click on it. Click on "open."…

Solution for this is to make flask or django apps. Easier to make user interfaces, and solves packaging / user experience problems.

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#65

Post by thetwentyone »

Related note about something I've been working on: https://JuliaActuary.org

It's basically packages to support actuarial work written in Julia, which addresses a lot of the issues of Python/R (environment management, runtime speed, rich cross-package compatibility).

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#66

Post by thetwentyone »

klelatti wrote: post #57
meztez wrote: post #50

I'm pushing for our actuarial team to transition to more R + Git. After 3 years of preaching, most of the actuaries now use RStudio + git as their primary work tool. It is happening. What we did : 1) Provide documentation on everything from install to using internal R libraries for ETL. 2) Provide mostly problem free, always updated VMs with RStudio Server/ Shiny Server. 3) Establish an hotline channel for instant he…

I'm an actuary with a strong interest in this area - would be very interested to hear more especially on your R vs Python experience.

I'm on mobile, but do also consider https://JuliaActuary.org (something that I personally have contributed to).

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#67

Post by meztez »

klelatti wrote: post #57
meztez wrote: post #50

I'm pushing for our actuarial team to transition to more R + Git. After 3 years of preaching, most of the actuaries now use RStudio + git as their primary work tool. It is happening. What we did : 1) Provide documentation on everything from install to using internal R libraries for ETL. 2) Provide mostly problem free, always updated VMs with RStudio Server/ Shiny Server. 3) Establish an hotline channel for instant he…

I'm an actuary with a strong interest in this area - would be very interested to hear more especially on your R vs Python experience.

It came down to IDE, workflow and data.table.

RStudio is an absolute killer solution from the get go. Package management in R is simple and robust. Shiny is the new Excel pivot table on performance enhancing code.

Python has more contributors, more users. It also creates a lot more noise. Business people may feel like it is a a programmer tool. R feel more approachable.

In the end, both are great solutions but we decided on R because we believe in the people contributing to the ecosystem, mostly RStudio. Somewhere down the line, there might be a transition to julia.

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#68

Post by will_pseudonym »

mslate wrote: post #29
yold__ wrote: post #26

I'm a research actuary working in reinsurance. Here is why I think Python creates more problems than it solves from the standpoint of most insurance business users: 1.) Environment management. There are many solutions for managing python dependencies, my favorite is Docker + pip. Good luck getting actuaries and underwriters to write Dockerfiles etc, and good luck getting I.T. to support Docker on Windows desktops. Li…

From an actuary's perspective: is Google Sheets ever entertained as an Excel alternative?

No, for many reasons. Workbook calculation performance, advanced, complicated spreadsheet incompatibility, worse UI/keyboard shortcuts, slow UI, different language than VBA for custom functions (It isn't necessarily worse, but it's the same thing as trying to convince a department to switch from language X to Y including rewriting every application that's written in X. Also, every person you've ever hired was familiar with X, and has no experience with Y.)

R/Python/SAS etc. are a much more compelling alternative to Excel than Google Sheets (to say nothing of the actuarial modeling software packages that are used already for more rigorous/complicated problems).

If an insurance company decided to move all of their MS Office users to Google Docs/Sheets etc, my money is on the actuarial department paying for Excel out of their budget without a moment's hesitation.

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#69

Post by klelatti »

meztez wrote: post #67
klelatti wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an actuary with a strong interest in this area - would be very interested to hear more especially on your R vs Python experience.

It came down to IDE, workflow and data.table. RStudio is an absolute killer solution from the get go. Package management in R is simple and robust. Shiny is the new Excel pivot table on performance enhancing code. Python has more contributors, more users. It also creates a lot more noise. Business people may feel like it is a a programmer tool. R feel more approachable. In the end, both are great solutions but we dec…

Thanks - really interesting, especially on the RStudio point.

Re: Ditching Excel for Python in a legacy industry

#70

Post by stochastastic »

yold__ wrote: post #26

I'm a research actuary working in reinsurance. Here is why I think Python creates more problems than it solves from the standpoint of most insurance business users: 1.) Environment management. There are many solutions for managing python dependencies, my favorite is Docker + pip. Good luck getting actuaries and underwriters to write Dockerfiles etc, and good luck getting I.T. to support Docker on Windows desktops. Li…

Hey fellow reinsurance actuary! I totally agree that Excel has its place in modeling, especially one-offs, and your criticisms make sense. That said, we have been moving a lot of our calculations to Python. We have had way too many rickety tools to move files or send emails (“first you open this spreadsheet and click this button, then you open this spreadsheet and click this button, then...”), and way too many version control issues over the years. Python solves those nicely.

I’m curious about docker + pip, why do you like that better than poetry or pipenv?

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