Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 107 posts

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#81

Post by asdfadsfgfdda »

cultus wrote: post #64
google234123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that?

How do you know it does? The pro-surveillence side needs to put forth positive evidence. The precautionary principle is the only just, non-authoritarian option for situations like this. I know the targets are mostly in neighborhoods that you probably don't frequent, but those people have the same rights you do, and that includes the right to reasonable privacy.

They do publish evidence. Seems to increase the "closure" rate by 5-10%. It's not perfect data, because they are only flying during the day, so crime committed at night may just be harder to solve.

https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%...

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#82

Post by xt00 »

google234123 wrote: post #6
xt00 wrote: post #2

ACLU just needs to file a briefing asking "could this data be used to track the movement of judges, or city officials around the city?"

Why does that matter? You could block literally anything if all you need to show is that it can be used again a judge or city official.

There have been countless examples of police organizations using surveillance in ways beyond their initial use -- so certain people like the mayor or judges might think "the police would be too dumb to try to use this against somebody like me", but if the system is essentially a dragnet where they store all the data, then they do actually track the judges and public officials in reality since the data would be stored -- just because they aren't accessing it today doesn't mean they can't in the future -- a FOIA request might be used to request all of the mayor's movements over the past year. Just the request itself may cause the mayor or other officials to want the program to be disbanded because they realize it can be used to mine information about where public officials are moving. What if the mayor threatened to cut funding to the police, so they decide to mine the dataset to see if they can find something in the database that would make the mayor look bad that they can leak to the press, etc. So it should force the issue of saying what data gets stored and the legality of collecting it in the first place on literally everybody vs. particular people of interest. Its only a matter of time before you have something happen like, "hmm, the mayor seems to be spending a lot of time at a random apartment in one part of town... oh look who is this random woman that lives there that is most definitely not his wife... hmmmmm what should we do with this information"..

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#83

Post by macspoofing »

jcranmer wrote: post #78
macspoofing wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and your support for police brutality Show me where I supported policy brutality? Here's a hint: NOBODY supports police brutality.

Root comment of this thread: > Baltimore police does need a mass surveillance program - for it's own officers. Remember when they looked at 2 years of body-cam footage for one of their highest earners and came out the other end with 32 counts of assault, false imprisonment and generalized misconduct? [1] That's police brutality. Your reply: > The police is not the problem. [...] Victim-rights trump criminal-rights. T…

I repeat, show me where I supported policy brutality?

>The fact that you are arguing against oversight of the police

Where do I argue against oversight of the police?

>your general stance that appears to be okay with the police doing what they need to to prevent crime

Nowhere did I argue that, nor do I support that.

What is wrong with you? Can you stop straw manning my position?

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#84

Post by jcranmer »

macspoofing wrote: post #83
jcranmer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Root comment of this thread: > Baltimore police does need a mass surveillance program - for it's own officers. Remember when they looked at 2 years of body-cam footage for one of their highest earners and came out the other end with 32 counts of assault, false imprisonment and generalized misconduct? [1] That's police brutality. Your reply: > The police is not the problem. [...] Victim-rights trump criminal-rights. T…

I repeat, show me where I supported policy brutality? >The fact that you are arguing against oversight of the police Where do I argue against oversight of the police? >your general stance that appears to be okay with the police doing what they need to to prevent crime Nowhere did I argue that, nor do I support that. What is wrong with you? Can you stop straw manning my position?

Please indicate how the policies you support, i.e., "tough policing" differs from police brutality. As I said in my previous comment, I fail to see how "tough policing" is anything other than a polite euphemism for police brutality.

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#85

Post by macspoofing »

jcranmer wrote: post #84
macspoofing wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I repeat, show me where I supported policy brutality? >The fact that you are arguing against oversight of the police Where do I argue against oversight of the police? >your general stance that appears to be okay with the police doing what they need to to prevent crime Nowhere did I argue that, nor do I support that. What is wrong with you? Can you stop straw manning my position?

Please indicate how the policies you support, i.e., "tough policing" differs from police brutality. As I said in my previous comment, I fail to see how "tough policing" is anything other than a polite euphemism for police brutality.

>Please indicate how the policies you support,

You can't stop straw manning me, can you? Please indicate where I showed support for 'tough policing'?

The only policy I argued for was this drone program because that has real potential in getting criminals out of the community.

The argument about 'tough policing' is not one of support, nor is it a justification of any police brutality. Police officers should be held responsible for breaking the law and 'police brutality' is against the law. All I argued is that the type of policing you get is a result of the environment. I made this argument as a counter argument to the trope that somehow policing causes crime and if we can just fix policing that crime will magically go away. That's not how it works. You can put as many regulations as you want (and police are already highly regulated - for good reason), but you're not going to get easy-going Nordic-style policing in one of the most violent cities in the world. You're also not going to lower crime rates either. Again: that's neither support for, nor a justification of police brutality.

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#86

Post by google234123 »

cultus wrote: post #61
google234123 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Baltimore?

Perhaps you need to change your news sources, because you have a very warped idea of how violent inner cities are. It's not the 1970's.

According to the wiki page on this, the murder rate is now 3 times high than 1977 (start of data on the table).

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#87

Post by valuearb »

macspoofing wrote: post #65
valuearb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to this article about the Baltimore cop arrested for 32 counts of false arrest and imprisonment. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/12/12/an-office... Every bystander he harassed or assaulted is going to dislike the police even more, and help them even less. When police detectives go to them for help solving a crime, how often will they refuse to testify because of their distrust of the cops…

>It’s a fantasy that the solution to high crime areas is tougher policing. I didn't argue that. I said that tough policing is a natural result of high crime areas because cops are humans and are affected by the environment they are in. I read an article about Facebook and YouTube content reviewers getting PTSD after only a few weeks of work looking at despicable images. Imagine being a cop with decades of experience…

Imagine being a cop trying to do your best to treat honest citizens fairly and honestly, and show them that you are there to protect them, and need their help and cooperation to find criminals.

Then another cop goes into your neighborhood best, and starts threatening, intimidating, and even assaulting and falsely arresting honest citizens for filming, spectating, not producing ID, or just looking like a suspect they are after.

How easy is your job now? Those residents know who the drug dealers and actual criminals are.

Your perspective is like saying the US didn’t need Vietnamese villagers help to fight the NVA. I guess we must have won there didn’t we?

Lastly Dirty Harry, they aren’t criminals rights, they are our rights.

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#88

Post by NE2z2T9qi »

I'm as libertarian as they come, but I've also lived in Baltimore and know how incapable the city is of controlling its crime. Baltimore's homicide clearance rate in 2019 was 32%. Not only does that leave its residents living in fear, that also represents an outrageous injustice against victims whose deaths are written off as business as usual.

Baltimore residents have a right to set their own destiny, but if they reject innovations in crime control that at least have a chance of being effective, I'm sure they'll spend the next 30 years like the last 30: getting absolutely nowhere. I spent decades desperately hoping and expecting Baltimore to turn the corner. It's an absolutely beautiful city with a rich history and many world-class cultural and educational institutions. But it hasn't changed (except even more murders over the last 50 years) and won't ever change if it doesn't control its crime.

Frankly, the city already has many hundreds of street-level "blue light" cameras all over the place. To me, those are far more problematic and intrusive with respect to privacy than aerial surveillance. I'd much rather be an anonymous pixel on a giant map than a person whose recognizable features are video recorded and stored on a government street level security camera. To me, blue light cameras are both more problematic and fundamentally less effective. And yet, that's what the city has already accepted as a worthwhile privacy trade off.

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#89

Post by jcranmer »

macspoofing wrote: post #85
jcranmer wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please indicate how the policies you support, i.e., "tough policing" differs from police brutality. As I said in my previous comment, I fail to see how "tough policing" is anything other than a polite euphemism for police brutality.

>Please indicate how the policies you support, You can't stop straw manning me, can you? Please indicate where I showed support for 'tough policing'? The only policy I argued for was this drone program because that has real potential in getting criminals out of the community. The argument about 'tough policing' is not one of support, nor is it a justification of any police brutality. Police officers should be held re…

On a careful review of your comments, you indeed never actually stated support for "tough policing," so I will retract that portion of my statement.

On the other hand, you did say at the very beginning, and I will quote your words here:

> Victim-rights trump criminal-rights.

which I am honestly not sure how it is meant to be interpreted, if not as a statement of support for "tough policing" (at least in theory, since any policy that generally priotizes ensuring the criminals are caught over police not violating their moral, and constitutional, obligations is very likely to result in police violating those obligations).

Re: Baltimore police lied about almost every aspect of its spy plane program

#90

Post by cultus »

asdfadsfgfdda wrote: post #81
cultus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it does? The pro-surveillence side needs to put forth positive evidence. The precautionary principle is the only just, non-authoritarian option for situations like this. I know the targets are mostly in neighborhoods that you probably don't frequent, but those people have the same rights you do, and that includes the right to reasonable privacy.

They do publish evidence. Seems to increase the "closure" rate by 5-10%. It's not perfect data, because they are only flying during the day, so crime committed at night may just be harder to solve. https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%...

Sorry, but that's not a reliable source.
Post reply on HN