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European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

eci.ec.europa.eu

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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#81

Post by emteycz »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

That's interesting - if what you're saying is true then why is the government's next year policy significantly increasing taxes, essentially stopping all investment and reducing social safety payouts to nearly zero - all of that in order to pay debt? We're not in the Eurozone, were THE ONE country with nearly total employment, and were the fastest growing European economy before the pandemic.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#82

Post by emteycz »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #16
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

This is not like a universal basic income though: it was not universal. Handing of the money in an emergency situation has also the fundamental difference that it isn't meant to be sustainable: it's one off, and the preparation does not include reworking the financial structure of the state to make it permanent, like all UBI proposals I've seen so far.

I absolutely don't get your point. The financial structure of the state was reworked for these not-universal payouts (this is not the USA, the annual budget is made from scratch each year), and if the payouts were universal and more than one the country would be in literal ruins right now. There is no possibility of making it sustainable in the not-universal form, so how exactly could it be made sustainable if it was universal?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#83

Post by akvadrako »

roenxi wrote: post #55
mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

> 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet Whatever people mean when they say inequality, I don't see how a UBI can help. If some people are not working hard enough to justify their existence to the economy without a UBI, they are never going to be even imaginably close to equal with someone running a big company. The only way for the economy to recognise someone who is only sorta-wor…

> Whatever people mean when they say inequality, I don't see how a UBI can help.

Because it allows people to take risks that are normally only available to the financially secure, like starting a business.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#84

Post by Scandiravian »

emteycz wrote: post #81
Scandiravian wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

That's interesting - if what you're saying is true then why is the government's next year policy significantly increasing taxes, essentially stopping all investment and reducing social safety payouts to nearly zero - all of that in order to pay debt? We're not in the Eurozone, were THE ONE country with nearly total employment, and were the fastest growing European economy before the pandemic.

I'm not sure what country you're referring to - could you specify that?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#85

Post by akvadrako »

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

> Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic income for decades now (these usually go by names such as 'renta de gastos esenciales', 'renta de ingresos', etc).

basic income, not Unconditional BI. I would be surprised if those programs were unconditional, which is what makes UBI work - the ability to work while still earning them.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#86

Post by username90 »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

> National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation

Why do you say this as a Scandinavian when all Scandinavian are fiscally responsible and don't take on more debt every year? Taking on debt isn't a good thing, you can have currency without having any debt as a nation, they aren't related at all. People arguing for that are just trying to manipulate you into believing they are on your side.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#87

Post by mantas »

username90 wrote: post #80
mantas wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, how does UBI work with different life circumstances. Does a disabled person get extra to cover wheelchair maintenance? Does allergic person gets more to afford allergy-OK food? Does woman get more to cover pads/tampons?

> Does woman get more to cover pads/tampons? Not sure why people repeat this so much when men's extra need for calories to fuel their larger bodies greatly outweighs that.

A tall woman needs as much as a tiny man. Should UBI account for body mass? What should it do with underweight or overweight people then? :)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#88

Post by roenxi »

akvadrako wrote: post #83
roenxi wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet Whatever people mean when they say inequality, I don't see how a UBI can help. If some people are not working hard enough to justify their existence to the economy without a UBI, they are never going to be even imaginably close to equal with someone running a big company. The only way for the economy to recognise someone who is only sorta-wor…

> Whatever people mean when they say inequality, I don't see how a UBI can help. Because it allows people to take risks that are normally only available to the financially secure, like starting a business.

The most successful story of new businesses starting in the last century has been what, Silicon Valley? Inequality is very high there because the people who started businesses sometimes became filthy rich and hired a bunch of overpaid engineers to help run the new businesses.

Nothing wrong with the argument that UBI gives people opportunities. It may well do that. But if it succeeds at that, it is decent evidence it will increase inequality.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#89

Post by Scandiravian »

username90 wrote: post #86
Scandiravian wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

> National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Why do you say this as a Scandinavian when all Scandinavian are fiscally responsible and don't take on more debt every year? Taking on debt isn't a good thing, you can have currency without having any debt as a nation, they aren't related at all. People arguing for that are just trying to man…

I think you're skipping over "for the most part" in my post

Are you talking about private debt or governmental debt? They are, as stated in my first post, two entirely different things

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#90

Post by scotty79 »

mantas wrote: post #18
oh_sigh wrote: post #12

How does UBI work with different costs of living? Do city dwellers get more than rural folk?

Also, how does UBI work with different life circumstances. Does a disabled person get extra to cover wheelchair maintenance? Does allergic person gets more to afford allergy-OK food? Does woman get more to cover pads/tampons?

It's just fixed amount of money that may or may not cover for your specific needs and preferences.

Variability in those needs are taken care of outside of UBI. You can still have a separate funds for medical equipment and you can still have prices of pads subsidized by goverment to promote hygiene.

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