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European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

eci.ec.europa.eu

41–50 of 156 posts

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#41
post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

How come you don't observe massive emigration with such levels of unemployment? In Poland it is hard to find workers (observed for example by long waiting queues when asking around for builders, heat or water specialists, etc. In general construction and house refurbishment market is booming during covid. PL demographics projection is very bad , further worsening the forecasts on the market. Wages are growing but the…

There is quite a bit of emigration judging by the number of young Spanish people in the UK.

Another thing is that there is a significant "black economy" in Spain. I.e. the unemployment numbers do not exactly reflect the actual number of people who cannot find any work, which is less than the official figure.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#42
post #3

I use to think UBI was a good thing, but looking at what's happened in the past year, I was completely and totally wrong. UBI would likely be a complete disaster. It'd be less Star Trek and more The Expanse. This is a horrible idea.

In the advertised forms, absolutely horrible idea, why would anyone introduce so much uncertainty in the monetary system is beyond me.

There are smart ways to do it though, such as doing it in a second-tier currency that buys only essentials or directly in terms of food, shelter and education. Just a free STEM/business education will go a long way if we can find some way to keep students engaged and committed to put the effort to actually learn.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible w…

post-work society What does that mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-work_society

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I don't know what kind of economic books you've read, but mine had terms such as "hyperinflation" in them :-) If anything, stuff like global currencies ($, €) bail out their respective owners because they're world reserve currencies. Some of the smaller Eurozone countries would have definitely defaulted, had hyperinflation, etc, without the Euro. Now they're in recession instead, which sucks a lot but still less than…

I have never understood, why everyone brings up inflation as an argument against this, as if that isn't something that already exists

Inflation is only an issue if you spend money beyond what is required to achieve full employment in the workforce, since new money in the system is balanced with new wealth being generated through work

Inflation can then be controlled through taxation. Raising taxes pulls money out of circulation, thereby reducing inflation

Private banks already have the ability to create money out of thin air, but for some weird reason, that's apparently not really an issue for most people

I can't think of any small European countries that I can imagine defaulting without the euro. Could you specify which ones you think would have defaulted?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#45
post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

> mitigates poverty

I think that's the main point of the idea. It doesn't promise to make everything better for everybody just not horrible as it is now.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#46
post #28
post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

Supposedly it would help with #3, because you'd need to tax something to get the money no? Also, I've always wondered, if unemployment is so high, is it because the work just isn't needed? Does spain already produce and provide services in a way that scale to all its population?

> is it because the work just isn't needed?

Well, obviously it isn't needed today but you can always change the economy so that it becomes profitable enough to hire everyone.

>Does spain already produce and provide services in a way that scale to all its population?

A lot of products come from China nowadays which means your domestic workers have to do high skill jobs to compete internationally or low skill jobs that can only be done domestically. You can also argue that environmental protections make it unprofitable to a lot of things domestically.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#47
post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible w…

> However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all

And to keep the jobs of those doing that kind of production. I read an article a few years ago about Spaniards living in small flats more than any other country in Europe.

There are a few features of Spain that can explain why:

- Spain is mostly empty space and population is concentrated in cities

- Spaniards spend a lot of their time on the outside, so they don't need much space at home

- There are 18.5 million of families in Spain, the largest group are families of two people (with children), the second largest are people living alone (4.5 million) that would explain why there are empty houses, many people living alone cannot afford or do not want to live alone and share an apartment.

> so we have to think of a post-work society

You mean the pre-work society, right? :)

Work as the means of subsistence is a relatively recent invention.

There are other factors beyond the economic value of work, most of them are non-rational.

Take for example Christianity, for Christians until 19th century work was a form of redemption and salvation.

The idea has never completely faded away among them.

Calvinists and Protestants still believe that "born of poor parents and made his way up the ladder by sheer ability, self-reliance, and perseverance in the face of hardship. In short, he had to be "self made." The so-called Protestant Ethic then prevalent held that man was a sturdy and responsible individual, responsible to himself, his society, and his God. Anybody who could not measure up to that standard could not qualify for public office or even popular respect."

Do you think that large segments of US population (just as an example) would believe that or what Martin Luther King jr. said?

> We have deluded ourselves into believing the myth that capitalism grew and prospered out of the Protestant ethic of hard work and sacrifice. The fact is that capitalism was built on the exploitation and suffering of black slaves and continues to thrive on the exploitation of the poor — both black and white, here and abroad

More recently work for Christians has become a means of subsistence but it has become a way to express righteousness, as Weber said "Good works may express our devotion to values of care, compassion, or love for our neighbor, to a way of being that emulates the life of Jesus".

So in a way people go to work for reasons other than simply the salary.

To imagine a society without work one needs to also address the social and political issues revolving around it, it's not simply a technical solution to a technical problem, it's much more than that.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#48
post #33

The summary in the link means nothing as it does not address the key points: What is meant by "unconditional universal basic income"? How much would it be? How would it be financed? What are the expected effects? Why would that be 'better' than the existing welfare state schemes in the various EU countries? These are too often not described when discussing UBI or discussed without much facts or data.

It's just a petition. If it succeeds, the only thing EU has to do is to discuss it, and these things can be discussed. Personally, I would like UBI to be tied to GDP per capita, like say 10% of the GDP would be redistributed to every person. It would help to solve the wealth and income inequality problem that causes huge misallocation of resources (for example, EU has twice as many empty apartments than it has homele…

So you're advocating for stealing these empty apartments from their owners and giving them to the poor, obviously, for free?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I wonder how "educated" one need to be before they can believe that.

I think this is a low-effort post that brings nothing new to the table and that it degrades the level of discussion. I'd like you to put more effort into bringing perspective to a discussion in future posts you make
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