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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#671

Post by Alupis »

sellyme wrote: post #665
Alupis wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.

I think you've lost sight of the original context of this thread. Here's the top comment: > As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. Of course Americans can and should decry Chinese slave labour camps, but you've just finished explaining why the American slave labour issue is a lot easier to address and deal with, so if…

The context of the thread is perfectly clear.

Some people believe as long as the US underpays prisoners convicted of crimes, the CCP gets carte blanche to imprison a million people because of their religion, and force them into labor camps.

Or did I misread this entire thread?

And making companies like Apple legally responsible for their supply chain labor will do nothing to stem the flurry of actual slave labor camps seemingly sprouting up all over China.

Chinese companies will continue to use the free labor and compete on an uneven global playing field, so long as the CCP sees a benefit.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#672

Post by coldtea »

Alupis wrote: post #610
quicklime wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have…

The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.

>The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China

Oh, yes, it does. Surely not perfect, but much better, or at least not as bad.

Especially since unlike China thus far, the US tends to drop bombs and invade places they "decry".

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#673

Post by judge2020 »

ardy42 wrote: post #569
duxup wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's always some manufacturer willing to do this thing with any product, even with Apple and just continue on. We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue.

> We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue. You're correct, but there's another angle to this than ending the practice: moral complicity. An individual in the antebellum south couldn't reasonably end the institution of slavery in the US, but he could have taken actions that affected the degree he was personally complicit. If he owned an…

The issue is arising from China potentially forcing Uighur people to find jobs 'on their own' lest they be held indefinitely in concentration camps. You can't audit that. You ask every worker and see if they say 'yes' or 'no' to the question "are you working here of your own free will" and see which ones say no with this threat looming over them.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#674

Post by sellyme »

Alupis wrote: post #620
arentyouspecial wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why aren’t they paid a fair wage? Keep moving the goal post, but these people are being exploited.

Yes, you can indeed continue to move the goal posts, but acknowledge we're far into the weeds and even further from what the article focused on - Religious Slave Labor Camps in China. Why aren't inmates paid a "fair" wage? Well, that's up for debate and I think I'd enjoy hearing pros and cons. Some cons I could think of are: * These are inmates, serving a sentence as punishment for a crime they were convicted of. * M…

> * These are inmates, serving a sentence as punishment for a crime they were convicted of.

If the gaol sentence is their punishment, why are they being penalised further by reduced wages?

> * If inmate labor cost what non-inmate labor costs, why would anyone hire inmates?

Government-backed incentives. It's in everyone's best interests for people convicted of crimes to have a path back on to the straight-and-narrow. Investing in reducing recidivism is far better value for money than almost any other anti-crime measures.

> * The labor programs are largely voluntary. [...] Alternatives include doing nothing all day instead of a job.

These statements are contradictory.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#675

Post by dirtyid »

wolverine876 wrote: post #621
dirtyid wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously, it didn't Of course it did, in Kishore Mahbuani's words: >The greatest explosion of personal freedoms that the Chinese people have experienced in the past 4,000 years has taken place in the last 40 years There's some slide back in some categories from Hu Jintao era, but overall things are progressing. The west fixates on the 1% of extra bad when it's been mostly great. >what human cost? 800m uplifted fro…

> a few million minorities gets shafted, to be crass: the cost was/is negligible That is the difference between a society of freedom and human rights, and mob rule. Someone else's benefits have nothing to do with the horrors suffered by people in Tibet and Xinjiang. Each one of those people is as important as you or me.

>Each one of those people is as important as you or me.

Yeah they are.

The reality is also that frontier territories have been historically spared the harsh repressions rest of country / populus went through postwar like cultural revolution, great leap forward, strict family planning etc, simply by virtue of being too far. Enter infrastructure and billions in spent on connectivity. Secessionism had to be reign in eventually, and current systems has as much carrots as sticks. Also carrots that was not available to a much poorer China. There's a reason why disproportionate resources are diverted to Tibet and XJ for development. Carrots that freedom + human rights countries typically do not extend to their own repressed minorities. Indigenous camps in Canada still don't have clean water, because voters in democracies do not want to give carrots when virtue signalling is sufficient. CCP doesn't have to listen to majority Han reee about spending money on minorities. Last time I calculated enough money poured into XJ to cut every Uygure a 200K RMB / 30K USD check.

The fundamental issue is carrots are not enough, you cannot pay people to secularize/sinicize/integrate. You have to indoctrinate, not just future generations, but also current. This is not endorsement of the policies. Merely it is predictable next step with new Chinese capabilities, further made inevitable by salafist terrorism fermented by blowback of foreign policy decisions of USSR/West/ME and other geopolitical factors. Things would be very different in a world without mujahideens inspiring drama in XJ or CIA fucking around with Tibet or general US pivot to Asia or current great powers competition. This is why CCP is obsessed with with foreign meddling. Nevermind that Tibet/XJ is 2/3 of Chinese land and contain vast security benefits. More relevant to "as important as you or me", these minorities are _more_ important than the average Han. Security is paramount state responsibility, more so in an authoritarian one because there is no one else to shift blame. And even then blame is no replacement for overwhelmingly excessive counter-terrorism response where possible. Incidentally why XJ is getting the full measure while Tibet gets half. That's baseline populist expectation, CCP is adding the carrots when the people scream for sticks. A democratic China would just lockup the Uyghurs and Tibetans in perennial prison industrial complexes like US or sequester them away in generation ghettos like France. An imperial China would actually genocide them. Trivially. That's the dynamic of in a capitalist ethnostate with "problematic" minorities. What currently exists is not the best timeline, but it's also not remotely the worst for security logic, which again, trumps all other considerations. Incidentally, this applied to HK, and will apply to Taiwan.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#676

Post by Technically »

Alupis wrote: post #616
MereInterest wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery. https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/

You have an uphill battle to convince anyone being paid (any amount) for voluntary labor is akin to slave labor.

You have an uphill battle to convince me that prison labor is in any way voluntary—to me, that implies access to a fair job market.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#677

Post by Alupis »

coldtea wrote: post #672
Alupis wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.

> The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China Oh, yes, it does. Surely not perfect, but much better, or at least not as bad. Especially since unlike China thus far, the US tends to drop bombs and invade places they "decry".

>> The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China

> Oh, yes, it does. Surely not perfect, but much better, or at least not as bad.

The country that was founded on the principal of religious freedom, by people that fled religious persecution, and felt so strongly as to list religious freedom as item number one in their list of human rights, does not need to be "much better" to call out religious slave labor camps.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#678

Post by free_rms »

mgh2 wrote: post #564
darig wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

We manage to imprison 4x as many people per capita compared to China.

Think of every bad thing you think and have been told about the big bad CCP and then think that we manage to imprison at 4x their rate. What does that make us?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#679

Post by dillondoyle »

onethought wrote: post #642
dillondoyle wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that. it's not reality. To me it's two fold: - The US would not have a relationship say similar to Britain/US because of the fundamental differences and problems with CCP's behavior - Vis a vis the CCP's habitual covering up of anything embarrassing and Xi's / CCPs singular focus on maintaining and growing their own power. see COVID, SARs and the many examples from business to free speech & 'press.' It's…

The shoe IS on the other foot, and the US DID hide the facts. Their administration purposefully suppressed CDC information and pursued a herd immunity strategy without expressing it. You can't say "beyond trumps own incompetence and personality" without also saying "without Xi's incompetence and personality"... I don't think that is intellectually fair. I'm happy to criticise china for the things it could do better:…

Every single China thread on HN turns into a false equivalence 'no the US has far worse history / false whataboutism'

A couple Trump political appointees attempted to do that. The system worked and the US didn't jail the NYTimes and the press for reporting the facts. Their stupidly half assed political crap didn't work and they lost the election.

I wouldn't call Xi incompetent but instead scarily so. The power of Trump versus Xi & CCP are not even in the same ballpark

It's pointless to engage but sometimes I can't help it

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#680

Post by coldtea »

Alupis wrote: post #677
coldtea wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China Oh, yes, it does. Surely not perfect, but much better, or at least not as bad. Especially since unlike China thus far, the US tends to drop bombs and invade places they "decry".

>> The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China > Oh, yes, it does. Surely not perfect, but much better, or at least not as bad. The country that was founded on the principal of religious freedom, by people that fled religious persecution, and felt so strongly as to list religious freedom as item number one in their list of human rights, does not need to be "much…

>The country that was founded on the principal of religious freedom, by people that fled religious persecution, and felt so strongly as to list religious freedom as item number one in their list of human rights, does not need to be "much better" to call out religious slave labor camps.

"The country that founded on the principal of religious freedom" is nationalistic trite, like "land of the free" (which ended slavery later than other western countries, gave poor, blacks, and women the vote later, has 25% of the world's prison population, and so on), and "home of the brave" (where the Army is professional and the majority of the population had never had the chance to fight in any war or suffer any war domestically for over a century, so one wonders how/what this "braveness" is measured with and against).

First, what the country was "founded on" means little. What the country has historically did and up to now does (warred, enslaved, invaded, occupied, strong-armed, intimidated, etc.) matters more.

Second, the fact that a country was founded by religious hardcores literally thrown out of Europe for being such, and that they wanted "religious freedom" in their new dwellings so as to they not kill each other, doesn't give it any special moral high ground. Heck, if it was up to any of the religious sects that ended up there, the others would be illegal (the US still has the most fundamentalist religious people in the West, which when they had the upper hand were ok with forcing their will as law on anything from abortions to music releases). But they needed "religious freedom" because none of them had the power over all the other denominations (all Christian at the time, mostly variations of protestantism), and thus they made a virtue out of necessity.

Not to mention that they still managed all together to opress the blacks (nuff said), the native americans ("trail of tears"), the early Chinese, Irish, etc immigrants, and so on...

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