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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and requiring them to resolve the issues. Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very limited in what they can do.

I respectfully disagree. The only heavy lifting that governments need is to hold Apple and their executives criminally responsible. Apple has shown ruthless effectiveness in tracking down leakers and prosecuting them. But making sure the workers who are making their parts and assembling their devices aren't slaves or being abused is a bridge too far for the richest company in the world? I don't believe it. It's Apple…

They do publish an annual Supplier Responsibility Report. It's been a while since I read it, but they've definitely found and punished misbehaving suppliers.

I think I remember one instance where underage workers were discovered and Apple forced the supplier to finance their higher education. In another they found a false wall had been installed in a factory to conceal hazardously stored chemicals and, again if memory serves, immediately terminated the supplier's contract.

https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/

According to HN search this is the only comment in over 600 that mentions this page. Beyond the marketing text, the PDFs at the bottom cover thousands of pages of supplier guidelines, government filings, lists of suppliers, audit results, etc.

Take with as large a grain of salt as you'd like, but at least it is a primary source on the topic. Apple naturally will be tightlipped during their investigation of these incidents, but I'm curious how they will be covered in their subsequent publications.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to want to kill flies with nuclear weapons. The vast majority of third world workers benefit from free trade and freely choose the jobs it produces. Protectionism sentences people far poorer than you to far worse economic lives. Taking away Apple assembly jobs doesn’t increase third world wages or worker protections, it makes them worse. Those workers are consigned to work back in brutal rural jobs that not…

My countries government should understand the implications of the policies it impliments, including the impact on people in other countries, but my governments first concern shouldn't be those other peoples, it should be it's own citizens! For those who seriously try to understand this topic, the implication you aren't talking about (and a myriad more) is that due to this we can expect the first world standards/wealt…

Free trade increases the standard of living of all participants, including both the third and first world, so I’m having trouble understanding your point.

Go read up about comparative advantage to understand the true benefits of free trade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Or ask yourself, if you were a lawyer billing $200 an hour for your services, and had a secretary costing you $20/hour doing your typing, would you fire them if you could type twice as fast as them? Would spending part of your work hours on less valuable work make you wealthier or poorer?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly did Apple do? The hired a contractor, and they just found out that contractor is using slave labor, so now they are investigating. The last time they found out a contractor was using slave labor, they severed the relationship. I'm not sure what else you'd expect them to do exactly.

I would expect one of the largest and most powerful companies in the world that is always virtue signaling to have their supply chain 100% slave free. That is not a big ask.

The relationship between Apple and its suppliers is, ultimately, antagonistic. Apple wants to maximise units of work per dollar, their suppliers want to maximise dollars per unit of work. This creates an incentive for suppliers to cheat.

This makes the situation way, way more complex than “Apple needs to audit its supply chain”. While true, any such audit is going to be actively sabotaged by the suppliers. This will include actions like hiding workers, forcing them to lie, or moving them strategically between production lines to hide the truth.

I don’t mean to defend Apple here. I’m not sure what stops them creating their own businesses in China and Vietnam and elsewhere, where they directly hire the workers. Why does Apple outsource this stuff in the first place? Perhaps that’s the standard we should be holding them to.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#664
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with describing it as "voluntary", when the alternative is a longer prison sentence. It is paid a pittance, and is effectively involuntary.

> when the alternative is a longer prison sentence That's simply untrue.

You're lying again. Maybe you just don't know what the word Commutation means. Let me help: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/commutation

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#665
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have…

The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.

I think you've lost sight of the original context of this thread. Here's the top comment:

> As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change.

Of course Americans can and should decry Chinese slave labour camps, but you've just finished explaining why the American slave labour issue is a lot easier to address and deal with, so if they can't get that one sorted out I don't have high hopes for their chances of enforcing legal responsibility when dealing with China.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#666
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when the alternative is a longer prison sentence That's simply untrue.

"Even though, in a lot of cases, it is technically voluntary, there can be serious consequences for people who refuse to work or who advocate for better working conditions because a lot of prisoners use working as a way of having their sentences reduced." Source: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263

In that section of the article they are discussing labor internal to the prison, specifically maintenance and daily chores. Yes, it is true, while in prison you do not have a choice but to participate in that kind of labor and refusal will not help you be released early for "good behavior" or anything similar.

External labor, the kind discussed here - contracted by a 3rd party for money - is voluntary.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#667
post #41
post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

>Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was).

Doesn't matter. That's a crap argument.

First, because enlarging some things (which necessitates belittling others) can help put an end to them.

Second, because forced labor and slavery are not that far off anyway. Both are depriving a person of their agency and steal their time and effort.

Third, because slavery itself was historically a spectrum. There were "domestic slaves" (sorta like Stephen in Django), cooks, nannys, teachers and "butler" types in charge of estate work in ancient Rome and Greece, etc.) that were treated and worked more or less like modern employees (except from the forced labor), even slaves in management of other slaves, and slaves that were chained, worked to the bone, beaten, raped, etc.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#668
post #13

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

Well, Apple is fighting against US legislation to thwart slave labor.

Because the bill says "you can't use slave labor" but also "you can't audit your supply chain to determine if slave labor is being used because audits are unreliable" so the only way to comply with a bill like that would be to completely pull out of China. Apple is desperately trying to do this with Vietnam and India plants but it doesn't happen overnight.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#669
post #564
post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

>Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people

Strange how this "just" system getting inmates "compensating for crimes committed against society and other people", ended up with 25% of the world's prison population in a country with a mere 4% of the world's population.

Not to mention this 25% seems also racially targeted - predominantly blacks and latinos...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#670
post #580
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines: - racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-…

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msn…

>What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton

So, sorta like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary

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