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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#601

Post by h0l0cube »

BigJono wrote: post #577
mgh2 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

How does some private company getting labor for 10c an hour benefit anyone but them? It's "compensating" for jack shit. You might have a point if they had to pay minimum wage for each employee to the government to be used on social services.

Add to this a perverse incentive to increase the 'labor pool' by corrupting the justice system.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#602

Post by wolverine876 »

mike_h wrote: post #578
Alupis wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” > > Actually it’s not... did you read it? Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote: > Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in facto…

That’s side-allegation, not what this article is about. And it’s a debatable one.

Simply do a quick search for Xinjiang forced labor; you will find endless reports from the world's most credible sources. What is your basis for saying it's debatable?

You argue every point, but what do you think should be done?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#603

Post by mensetmanusman »

eznzt wrote: post #13

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

There are satellite images of slave laborers in exactly that region.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/evidence...

The only news here is that they are using slaves for higher tech work than cotton.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#604

Post by wolverine876 »

Alupis wrote: post #580
mike_h wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines: - racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-…

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msn…

I agree. The attempts to change the subject to the U.S. are classic whataboutist arguments, and transparently weak ones. It's hard to imagine what's wrong with your points that you would be downvoted.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#605

Post by h0l0cube »

gthtjtkt wrote: post #548
threeseed wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and requiring them to resolve the issues. Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very limited in what they can do.

> immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation That's far too late and at that point they had no choice. They deserve no credit for doing it.

They deserve credit for changing behavior, but their policy should be proactive not reactive. This ought to be embedded into their branding such that they profit from their stance on human rights while also making it a desirable marketing point for competitors. (And surely they can afford to)

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#606

Post by Alupis »

arentyouspecial wrote: post #598
mgh2 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said these companies are doing a public good... The main difference is punishing someone who did commit a crime vs someone who did not. As simple as that.

Except they did when they said “ Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.” I’m not down playing the Chinese labor camps, I’m taking issue with claiming the prison labor in the US is some moral good. It’s exploiting people, not attempting to rehabilitating them…

You're forgetting the prison labor programs in the US are largely voluntary.

I say largely because there are some cases where punishment dictates certain number of hours worked, etc... but we're splitting hairs at this point.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#607

Post by quicklime »

Alupis wrote: post #595
mike_h wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt anyone in this thread is arguing that forced labor would be ok anywhere. But hypocrisy is its own destructive force in the world, and there’s a weird meme in Western culture whereby unsavory behavior in China is somehow a sign of evil while the West is somehow more pure. The respective body counts and the number of people in jail (absolute and per-capita) make this highly questionable.

The article is talking about something very specific. Muslims being forced into labor camps against their will. The US has it's share of problems - nobody sane would deny that. But, what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree. Even the very numbers that come from the CCP regarding their prison population are extremely suspect - th…

> what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree

If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have direct control over. But currently there is very little open discourse in the US about prison labor, especially compared to the amount of discourse about Xinjiang.

This doesn't excuse China for the things they are doing wrong.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#608

Post by onepointsixC »

threeseed wrote: post #540
akritrime wrote: post #214

Recently, Apple's supplier, Wistron faced revolt after treating workers unfairly here in India. And India is not really the most shining example of protecting our workers from unfair and harsh working conditions. So, if such treatments don't fly here, I don't think they will fly anywhere else. The kind of labor expectation that these companies have after their stints in China is ethically incompatible with most other…

Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and requiring them to resolve the issues. Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very limited in what they can do.

I respectfully disagree. The only heavy lifting that governments need is to hold Apple and their executives criminally responsible. Apple has shown ruthless effectiveness in tracking down leakers and prosecuting them. But making sure the workers who are making their parts and assembling their devices aren't slaves or being abused is a bridge too far for the richest company in the world?

I don't believe it. It's Apple's responsibility, and if achieving such a goal in some backwater is too difficult then maybe it shouldn't have been doing business there in the first place.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#609

Post by wolverine876 »

eznzt wrote: post #13

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

What is your answer? How do you evaluate claims and sources, and this claim and source? You seem to imply that you can't see any difference, and if that's the case (which I doubt), nobody can help you.

> Honest question.

Are other questions are dishonest? Why should we trust you?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#610

Post by Alupis »

quicklime wrote: post #607
Alupis wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is talking about something very specific. Muslims being forced into labor camps against their will. The US has it's share of problems - nobody sane would deny that. But, what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree. Even the very numbers that come from the CCP regarding their prison population are extremely suspect - th…

> what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have…

The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.
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