What will these poor soul's fate be if/when they can't be forced to work?
Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#562I’ve minimized my consumption of meat over the years, because the way we treat animals in the factory farms is too cruel. It’s not perfect, because I eat dairy and eggs which introduce their own set of cruelty. Likewise, I’m severely disappointed by Apple. I’ve switched from Android to iPhone because I like Apple’s stance on privacy. I’m extremely bothered that Apple with its resource is not lobbying to change the pl…
What evidence of foul play have you seen from Apple specifically? The majority of suppliers for eg, Fairphone is also in China, and Apple has the most comprehensive transparency reports and controls of them all.
Apple cannot wean themselves off of China until it’s competitive to do so. That requires a lot of long term planning and lobbying today.
What efforts has Apple made in order to make manufacturing in nations like China less appealing?
Have they collaborated with other large companies and even governments, to make doing business in authoritarian nations unappealing?
It’s the inaction and contentment with the status quo that distresses me.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... Could we get some citations to back this up? It seems too soon to even evaluate all of the effects of the (soon to be) previous administrations policies. But as a discussion point, Trump moved to end the postal subsidies China enjoyed which made it cheaper for us to have something shipped from there than to buy locally. How does…
That’s a single policy. Perhaps that’s a good one? Imagine a world where China and the U.S. were on better terms, start of the health crisis China helped provide huge amounts Of PPE required. Drs and epidemiologists from China with experience could have helped drs in the US. Instead they were coming off the back of a trade war over soy beans and hiding information from each other. Globalisation has effects that expan…
> As for citations: the US has just passed the second, largest stimulus package in its history beating or the first from a couple of months back. Are we’re ignoring this gorilla so much that people need citations?
I'm going to push back on the tenuous link between the US being protectionist and the stimulus package. It's not like protectionist policies directly led to the economic problems the US - and a lot of the world - are experiencing thus requiring the stimulus package.
Your argument is that if the trade war didn't happen China would have been far more likely to help us. That's not an unreasonable argument but even if they did do that how would that have prevented the economic damages caused by all of the lockdowns the US - and China - went through?
A reasonable argument could also be made that even if the trade war didn't happen China would not have done what you described anyway. China and the US have always had a tumultuous relationship. Plus let's not forget the panicked free-for-all when it came to PPE during the early days of the pandemic which many, many countries participated in.
So I would say the US's bungled response to the early days of the pandemic are what lead to the stimulus package, not any sort of protectionist policies. If the US were on better terms with China perhaps it would have been slightly less severe due to Chinese supplied masks during the shortage and all that; but given how difficult its been to make people wear masks in general I'm not so sure.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#564As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.
The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…
I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference.
Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause.
If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of the state" because they threaten CCP's interests. This is much like what happened with Nazi Germany or the USSR, even the controversial US Japanese internment camps.
In the original thread it was mentioned that Apple fans are brainwashed by the brand, it is obvious from the responses here that this is clearly working...
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if it's systemic, you could at least try to do something about it if you're one of the big guys. This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one.
> This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one. Apple has done far more than any tech company to take ownership of their supply chain.
I wouldn't call that a good sign of leadership. That's more an act of shutting everyone else off from access to technology.
Instead, a good leader will help lift others. Take Microsoft Research. For a long time, they were a leader in scientific publications in CS, with many awards. Compare that to Apple, and imho any sign of "leadership" is completely non-existent in comparison.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#566As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.
The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…
There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor.
Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor.
The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list.
Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#567Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or buy the Librem 5 USA model, made in the USA. https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/
I think the over double price tag (compared to the other model) should show how much the US has benefited from globalization (at other’s expense). Most consumers prefer cheaper things. What Purism is doing is very noble, but it’s not going to move any mountains. We need governmental regulation for that.
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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#568Earlier quoted context omitted.
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That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)
Two wrongs don’t make a right—hold every last one of them accountable, don’t excuse human rights abuses by anyone just because someone else has also committed abuses.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
It changes by holding companies like Apple accountable. They are the largest company in the world for goodness sake. Their audits when so little as a picture of a manual gets leaked are incredibly thorough, yet when it comes to literal slavery they're unable to reign it in? If we were to hold executives liable for acting as slavers then it would be miraculous how quickly corporate leadership would suddenly be interes…
I think there's always some manufacturer willing to do this thing with any product, even with Apple and just continue on. We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue.
> We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue.
You're correct, but there's another angle to this than ending the practice: moral complicity.
An individual in the antebellum south couldn't reasonably end the institution of slavery in the US, but he could have taken actions that affected the degree he was personally complicit. If he owned and profited from slavery, he was clearly complicit. If he did but had a change of heart and manumitted them, he's far less so. If he became an abolitionist and did his best to avoid supporting slaveholders or the products of slavery, he's hardly complicit at all.
If Apple chooses to deal with companies that use forced labor (or chooses to look the other way), it's complicit, and that means it's customers are too (to a lesser degree).
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#570Earlier quoted context omitted.
The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…
There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…
“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps”
Actually it’s not... did you read it?
The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination.
There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US prisons hardly count, and certainly don’t absolve the US justice system of the conflict of interest one can allege upon seeing how profitable it is for localities to throw people in jail.