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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously, it didn't Of course it did, in Kishore Mahbuani's words: >The greatest explosion of personal freedoms that the Chinese people have experienced in the past 4,000 years has taken place in the last 40 years There's some slide back in some categories from Hu Jintao era, but overall things are progressing. The west fixates on the 1% of extra bad when it's been mostly great. >what human cost? 800m uplifted fro…

It is an excellent point that the well managed Chinese economy and PR apparatus has helped the average Chinese citizen. You would be singing a different tune if you were to come under Chinese rule.

I worked in China under Chinese rule, there's frustrations, but it was mostly fine. Know / related to many Chinese nationals, spectrum from FLG practitioners to purged officials. From rich coastal provinces to poor inland ones. China's a stressful place, everyone bitches about how things are, the loudest from their multi million dollar tier1 condos. But almost no one wants to go back to Mao days, except the FLG practitioner because they missed ideological purity of the old party. People can sing whatever, and if you believe the recent Harvard surveys, they sing mostly good things. The fact that they're singing in the first place is unparalleled freedom compared to Mao times where private speech got you fucked, i.e. what the Uyghurs are going through now, which is to say 99% of the country has moved past that. It's an unambiguous improvement. First ever civil code just passed this year as well.

It's only been 30 years, about how long it took Taiwan/Korea to liberalize, except things take longer when you have 1.4B people and antagonism from global superpower. Taiwan/Korean dictatorship got unambiguous and sustained US support. Under Xi, it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Realistically it's is 5 steps forward and 1 step back, but west likes to paint that 1 step as a chasm.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please list smartphones i can buy that have no suppliers with any history of human rights issues thank you

https://www.fairphone.com/ https://www.pine64.org/ , to my knowledge.

Other comment has a list of suppliers.

https://www.fairphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/016_005...

One of which is "O-Film"

Apple dropped them because they used forced labor: https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/03/iphone-camera-supplier-o-film...

So, it's probably reasonable to suspect that FairPhone does (or did) use suppliers that used forced labor. I only checked the one because I had remembered hearing it somewhere.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#503
post #56

I fault companies like Apple for doing business with companies who do these things. But I'm not sure if anything changes if local governments aren't interested in stopping it (or actually support it) either. Markets don't care about human rights... and if the local government supports this (in this case China, but other places too). I don't see how this ever changes.

What I don’t understand is why companies want to be associated with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference can’t be that big. Also why isn’t it news? It feels like something that should have journalists camping outside Tim Cooks office. While I question his motives, it’s kinda weird that Trump of all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical of China.

It's cheap and makes them money, Apple will plaster few rainbow flags with blm somewhere and the issue is the past because for professional consumer Silicon Valley tech bros fall with every simple marketing campaign as long as they agree with.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#504

To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an is…

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

Real wages actually went up for Americans for the first time in 40 years during the last four years but yeah worse off...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#505

I’ve decided to leave the Apple ecosystem in 2021. But the problem is not isolated to Apple. In fact, I’d be surprised if other, cheaper products aren’t quite a bit worse. Is there an electronics company that does a better job? (That’s not a rhetorical question.)

There is also Librem 5 USA, but it's $2k: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ .

It’s not really made in the US is more that they inspect the parts and clip them together in the US and that costs them $1000 for some reason.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#506
Let me get this straight, seems like if a company uses Uyghur workers they get accused of "forced labor". Then solution is easy, lets not hire any Uyghur people. No employment Ugyhur people. Then Uyghur people know what happens, they don't have income, they stay poor. This is what these people who accuses of Uyghur "forced labor" want? China may not have the best labor laws. But this is 2020, at will employment, employment with pay, is common sense and the absolute basic basic fact supported by law. If you don't like the place you work for, if you don't want to go out of the province to work, no one, not the police, not the company, will throw you in jail. This is not slave labor. Slaving is just no socially and legally acceptable in China I don't see it ever be possible.

And let me be fully honest. Some local governments do tie special governmental poverty aids with participation in work programs. As in, you don't get certain poverty related aids if you are a able employable person but refuses to participate in a work placement program. But these people will still get standard social program, such as a basic state health insurance. And if the person is non-employable, for example, disabled, elderly, under working age, these don't apply.

Another possible situation is, a person is work-able, but has no job and has a income level below the absolute poverty standard. Recently the government has a target goal to reduce absolute poverty rates, and the way they do that is try to get every employable person a job so they have income. This transfer work placement is one of the programs. The government work with companies to create work opportunities and get people placed in them. Some people will refuse work just because they don't want to. And the government has KPIs and targets to reduce out of work people has much as possible. So government would nag people to join work. And the aforementioned tying these special poverty aids with participation in work placement. But there is no legal consequence for refuses. No one will be able to place you in a jail.

So if you say this government is coercion and "forcing" people to work this way, you can say that. But on the other hand, the idea is that people should make a living to support themselves. The government aids is partially interested in encouraging people to make a living on their own terms. A Chinese saying goes "授人以鱼不如授人以渔".

But now, various interest groups, NGOs and countries (US etc) are now painting these companies and China as a country as using forced labor. They are destroying public image, and economically sanctioning. A company could provide jobs for Ugyhur people. And frankly, some goes out of their way to do so because there are so many other people in China these companies could employ. China's job market is very competitive. And now they might lose their business and go bankrupt. And let me tell you that a lot of Han people look at this and think is special preferential treatment towards Ugyhurs. They think why do I not get these work placement programs.

I honestly feel this pretty twisted. Yes, there are bad stories in poverty reduction efforts the Chinese government is doing right now. Some local governments use illegal tactics. But the overarching goal is still positive. We as a society could leave people under absolute poverty to feed for themselves, let them stay at absolute bottom of society. But now, we set up and are doing something about it. At least we don't just talk the talk, but actually taking concrete actions. Yet, people outside of China is saying this is a "sin". And use this as an reason to punish China and the people living in the country to death.

And how interesting this comes at a time when various countries and interest groups is trying to suppress China's economic growth, how limit China's economy is the mainstream tone in the media. I don't get how actively seeking to destroy a country's economy is moral, and how no one comes out and say "hey, this is not right". Economy is prosperity, is people's livelihoods, is people's well being, is people's ability to enjoy life. Painting an economy as a target and looking for all kinds of tools to destroy it is against all of the above. I always believed people want the best for others, people want others to live a happy, prosperous live. But the foreign policy of the US for the past 2 years, things US political leaders said, media outlet around the world said, destroyed that belief. Hatred is really alive and well in this world. Living breathing people can have so much hatred in them. Some people just want to see others suffer, burn and dead. And some of these people actually hold devastating amount of power that can shape the very lives of people, even if they are small, ordinary people who live literally on the other side of the planet.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#507

To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an is…

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

I don’t vote for a president to achieve global fairness. I vote for one who will make my life the best. If that’s not great for Chinese peasants that’s not the US President’s problem. China should develop its economy, but the US should not have allowed its corporations to have given China such a huge leg up in doing so.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

Real wages actually went up for Americans for the first time in 40 years during the last four years but yeah worse off...

Citation, with inflation adjustments. Please provide.

Why is the US passing stimulus packages if it’s going so well?

(To further my point was that growth a hang over from the globalist President? Or a result of the protectionist one? Did it continue throughout the 4 years? I already know the answer, but just pointing out the flaw in your point for you so you don’t need to find it)

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#509
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Apple are also the highest rated tech company by Greenpeace for environmental issues after Fairphone.

That's quite strange given what they have been doing with repair: http://www.ibtimes.com/apple-airpods-repair-recycling-imposs... https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/apple-sues-canadian-recyc... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18144489

Apple has official repair locations all over the planet and they stock parts long after products are discontinued. Yes it kinda sucks that they killed third party repair but having an official location with official parts is actually more useful than being able to do it yourself but not being able to get parts.

For my pixel 2, while there were no technical restrictions preventing me from replacing the broken camera, the screen was glued in in a way making it very difficult to open without smashing. There were also no places to buy the camera other than what seemed to be cameras stripped out of broken/stolen pixel 2s.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you'd be interested in a Fairphone Another vegetarian here btw; I also didn't go all the way to becoming a vegan

When Arstechnica reviewed it last year, it was only available in Europe. I’ll keep a lookout. Edit: It’s manufactured in China, so there’s still a risk and it’s still supporting an authoritarian government.

Or buy the Librem 5 USA model, made in the USA. https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/
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