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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#401

Post by [deleted] »

j2bax wrote: post #350
whiddershins wrote: post #245

I flagged this article and I really would urge everyone to actually read it before commenting. I am very very concerned about China’s disregard for human rights, and I believe continuing to do business with CCP controlled companies is immoral. That said, this is unsubstantiated accusations against Apple, which Apple directly contradicts. I believe Apple has a lot of leverage and resources and probably doesn’t want to…

I feel like many of the posts here are just emotions based on the title alone. Have we devolved into Facebook meme rage territory on HN as well?

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#402

Post by findthewords »

Jommi wrote: post #58
MaxHoppersGhost wrote: post #29

I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this. People fall for it and it really pisses me off. Welcome to marketing. It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. It’s reprehensible and disgusting.

What other way would you suggest companies could link shareholder incentives and ethics? Hitting ESG metrics / recieving ESG credentials is a way for companies to benefit from doing the right thing.

Ethical behaviour cannot be measured. Companies are still maximising shareholder value. They are doing it by gaming ESG metrics. Nothing has changed.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#403

Post by barnacled »

slovette wrote: post #384
danudey wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China. The supply chain is also important. One person who worked in Shenzhen commented that,…

You’re going to get cherry picked apart for this, but as someone who has ran supply chains, been apart of product dev that involved early hardware design & dev and the necessary chain dev to build that design, you hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants a bad guy here, and apples logo with the billions behind it enable people to easily assign blame to that logo (not that they shouldn’t). But what’s forgotten is the…

I think that's a very unfair assessment of my original comment and very dismissive.

Do not make the mistake of thinking everybody who criticises a company like apple is naive as to the complexities and difficulties around supply chains at scale. I certain don't.

Having literally worked for one of apple's suppliers who they bankrupted to bring the process in-house I have given this probably a lot more thought than you imagine.

They have been trying to vertically integrate all suppliers as much as humanly possible for reasons of control, margin and competitive advantage. This has been apple's approach for many years and they have been utterly ruthless in doing so.

If they had the will to start to take the steps to actually divest from a literally genocidal state, they could do it. They simply do not care.

The part I do agree with you on is that they also know their customers do not care, and consumer awareness and action is a key part of pushing back on this kind of thing.

But please do not absolve apple of guilt by waving your hands and saying the supply chain is too interdependent and complicated.

If they can take steps to fuck over suppliers for profit and control, they can take steps to avoid slave labour.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#404

Post by bwilli123 »

downrightmike wrote: post #201
_pp0b wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they are forced to work or go to detention. That is slavery. There's also the problem with them getting gutted for the organ transplants that China's own doctors have reported to be 4 times higher than they should be for the population size. So it is work, or go to detention and possibly get gutted.

"They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they are forced to work or go to detention..." An Amazon warehouse is already 90% there then.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#405

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jkestner wrote: post #210

As long as I have to buy products built on human rights violations, I wish someone could sell me the equivalent of carbon offset credits.

You can do that. There are charities that literally buy slaves in order to free them.

Be aware, though, that there are people who criticize such practices as 1) accepting and giving legitimacy to the concept of slavery, and 2) increasing the demand, which tempts others to find ways to increase the supply. Personally, I don't find the first argument convincing. The second I could see being a legitimate concern.

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/28/angeliquechris...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#406

Post by TimTheTinker »

nobody9999 wrote: post #400
TimTheTinker wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take the option, they're still under punishment doled by the justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment".

>You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). By your logic, the Uighurs are experiencing "just" punishment under the laws of the People's Republic of China. Since the Uighurs have committed "crimes" (as defined by the government under which they live) against the state, they are subject to whatever punishment is prescri…

No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#408

Post by esarbe »

f6v wrote: post #321
esarbe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to…

> tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.

[flagged]

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#409

Post by esarbe »

monocasa wrote: post #360
esarbe wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say that there have to be two parties. And even if there was; make an amendment. It the case of the U.S., nobody is to blame but the U.S. voters.

Its a deeper structural issue that that. As you say, there's no law mandating it, but here we are.

I'm not sure it's a deeper structural issue. The issue is actually pretty simple; first-past-the-post voting. This automatically leads to a two-party system.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#410

Post by rukuu001 »

_pp0b wrote: post #41
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

It’s slavery with window dressing.

‘CCP defenders’ and other apologists will make bad-faith arguments no matter how precise you are.

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