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CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

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Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#141

Post by woodruffw »

dmix wrote: post #129
woodruffw wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm normally loathe to defend any aspect of the US MIC, but I think Pompeo's point is that Wikileaks knowingly publicizes information that has already been processed into Intelligence , and willfully turns a blind eye to its role as a laundromat for hostile powers under the guise of an ideology of totally free data. I, for one, think that all information should be free. I think Pompeo's motivations are suspect and ge…

If Wikileaks treats all leaks as equal then I don't see how this argument holds water. Where else are we going to get insight into the globbal power "underworld", which the intelligence community just happens to always have a finger in? Anonymous sources feeding into New York Times? Because that's all we had before and continue to have today otherwise. People just don't like when certain inconvenient information come…

> If Wikileaks treats all leaks as equal then I don't see how this argument holds water.

To be absolutely clear: I don't have any reason to doubt the motivations of Wikileaks' current leadership. I also genuinely believe that they treat all leaks as "equal," in the sense that they believe in the absolute freedom of information and are liable to (eventually) release everything that they're given.

The observation is tantamount to the tragedy of the commons: give malicious actors unlimited means under an ostensibly just principle, and your principle will be monopolized for malicious ends or used to subvert itself.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have commons, or that I want to live in a world without Wikileaks. It's just an admonishment to be aware of a risk inherent in "neutral" venues.

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#142

Post by woodruffw »

h0h0h0h0111 wrote: post #137
woodruffw wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely. I look forward to more leaks that discredit and diminish the DHS and law enforcement. But that doesn't mean that I trust Wikileaks to adequately balance the motivations and lensing of its sources with its mission of absolute transparency.

I'm not sure that I trust Wikileaks on that either, but I don't trust the powers that be to adequately balance such motivations either, and ultimately I'd rather Wikileaks released information in dubious faith than not at all. At least with information in the open, people can attempt to grok the full picture for themselves.

I agree completely. The more information, the better.

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#143

Post by woodruffw »

NOGDP wrote: post #140
woodruffw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the sibling comments. I'm more than happy to see information about the US's disastrous and criminal programs exposed. But that doesn't mean that I uncritically accept that an unbiased source does itself have unbiased sources.

Except you're spreading FUD about a huge trove of information without any specific reference to how or why the information is suspect. The only actual reasons you mention as to why this information is untrustworthy is that it's hurtful to US government agencies.

> The only actual reasons you mention as to why this information is untrustworthy is that it's hurtful to US government agencies.

I said "liberal democracy," not "US government agencies." I also don't think the information itself is suspect. Please read the surrounding (very good) discussion around the difference between information and intelligence.

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#145

Post by e40 »

woodruffw wrote: post #105
for_i_in_range wrote: post #99

He makes an important point early on in outlining the mission of Wikileaks centering on making Data and Information freely accessible to all (the concept of Dataism, for those who have read Yuval Harrari’s HOMO DEUS ). However, the processing of Information into Intelligence that can be acted upon is what characterizes Intelligence agencies. Wikileaks does not concern itself with this phase. Yet, the CIA’s Pompeo is…

I'm normally loathe to defend any aspect of the US MIC, but I think Pompeo's point is that Wikileaks knowingly publicizes information that has already been processed into Intelligence , and willfully turns a blind eye to its role as a laundromat for hostile powers under the guise of an ideology of totally free data. I, for one, think that all information should be free. I think Pompeo's motivations are suspect and ge…

What is not equal is the asymmetry of the information. In 2016 (2015?) the information was skewed to that provided by Russian intelligence.

If there were equal amounts of dirt on every politician, then fine, but there is clearly not. This is what bothers me about the whole thing. It can be manipulated by powerful states, and some of them are more willing to use it than others.

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#146

Post by NOGDP »

woodruffw wrote: post #143
NOGDP wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you're spreading FUD about a huge trove of information without any specific reference to how or why the information is suspect. The only actual reasons you mention as to why this information is untrustworthy is that it's hurtful to US government agencies.

> The only actual reasons you mention as to why this information is untrustworthy is that it's hurtful to US government agencies. I said "liberal democracy," not "US government agencies." I also don't think the information itself is suspect. Please read the surrounding (very good) discussion around the difference between information and intelligence .

> I said "liberal democracy," not "US government agencies." I also don't think the information itself is suspect.

So, how does exposing high-level corruption, war crimes, mass surveillance, etc. lead to a 'decline of liberal democracy'? Unless you mean 'exposing the ways in which our society is not a liberal democracy leads to the decline of the illusion of liberal democracy'?

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#147

Post by roywiggins »

gruez wrote: post #97
roywiggins wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck, I've been quizzed this way by agents of the US while returning to the US, as a citizen , from abroad. What's your job, what did you do on your trip, how long was it. This was before I got on the plane, in a foreign airport. They aren't interested in the answer, they're interested in whether you have a ready answer and don't sound evasive.

>They aren't interested in the answer, they're interested in whether you have a ready answer and don't sound evasive. It doesn't seem too hard to remember the answers to four questions and practice it beforehand.

It's probably harder if you you're a first-time drug mule or whatever. This isn't designed to catch out international terrorists so much as people with illegal substances in their underpants.

And of course there are follow-ups: I got asked what programming languages I use at work. All very casual-like.

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#148

Post by AsyncAwait »

shadowgovt wrote: post #115
AsyncAwait wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to be a big WikiLeaks supporter but these days are long gone. Then you've been duped. The prosecution of Assange is based on his work with Chelsea Manning on US war crimes in Iraq. But if the lives of poor brown people far away are not as important as cheap partizanship then the CIA can make you believe anything. Not to mention the fact HRC called for the assassination of Assange and his treatment has been c…

The Manning leaks were hugely irresponsible. While whistleblowing is a vital activity, the data dumps Manning pulled from the military network and State Department were unredacted raw dumps. They catalyzed Arab Spring by pushing the delicate realm of international diplomacy into the eyes of the public, leading to hundreds of deaths and, fundamentally, no real change. Possibly setting back democracy in the Middle East…

> The Manning leaks were hugely irresponsible. While whistleblowing is a vital activity, the data dumps Manning pulled from the military network and State Department were unredacted raw dumps.

WikiLeaks tried to get the Pentagon to help them redact documents[1]. They refused to do so knowing there would be people like you accusing WikiLeaks/Manning of wrongdoing here.

> I like Manning as a person, but state secrets exist for a reason and she deserved to be imprisoned for her crimes.

You do realize she shed light on war crimes right? Do you consider war crimes 'state secrets' that 'exist for a reason'?

The reason, oftentimes, is simply to hide wrongdoing, as was the case here. The fact Manning was imprisoned, (and tortured), while the killers of civilians and journalists she exposed were not shows that this is not a just system. It's designed to chill whileblowers and allow atrocities to continue, unpunished.

How anyone could support that is beyond me.

1 - https://www.salon.com/2010/08/20/wikileaks_5/

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#149

Post by seppin »

for_i_in_range wrote: post #99

He makes an important point early on in outlining the mission of Wikileaks centering on making Data and Information freely accessible to all (the concept of Dataism, for those who have read Yuval Harrari’s HOMO DEUS ). However, the processing of Information into Intelligence that can be acted upon is what characterizes Intelligence agencies. Wikileaks does not concern itself with this phase. Yet, the CIA’s Pompeo is…

The CIA recognizes Wikileaks as an arm of Kremlin information warfare. Western leftists are all too willing to help Wikileaks deflect from that obvious classification. (julian assange had a TV show on RT, what more do you need?)

Re: CIA vs. Wikileaks [video]

#150

Post by sudosysgen »

woodruffw wrote: post #105
for_i_in_range wrote: post #99

He makes an important point early on in outlining the mission of Wikileaks centering on making Data and Information freely accessible to all (the concept of Dataism, for those who have read Yuval Harrari’s HOMO DEUS ). However, the processing of Information into Intelligence that can be acted upon is what characterizes Intelligence agencies. Wikileaks does not concern itself with this phase. Yet, the CIA’s Pompeo is…

I'm normally loathe to defend any aspect of the US MIC, but I think Pompeo's point is that Wikileaks knowingly publicizes information that has already been processed into Intelligence , and willfully turns a blind eye to its role as a laundromat for hostile powers under the guise of an ideology of totally free data. I, for one, think that all information should be free. I think Pompeo's motivations are suspect and ge…

Any kind of democracy is incompatible with a system where intelligence agencies have absolute authority to hide information.

It used to be that Democracy meant that you could read any official document to make sure your government wasn't acting out. Intelligence agencies were a compromise on that, with the idea that at least if there was a disaster someone would speak out. Now even that is under threat?

The only long term vision that is compatible with this is the decline of democracy, liberal or not.

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