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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#221

Post by throw_m239339 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...

> I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...

I don't think so. Nothing happened with Tibet, or after the Tiananmen Square event AFAIK.

20 years ago, the people that signed all the trade deals with countries such as China claimed it would lead to improving democracy and human rights there, obviously, it didn't, People's Republic of China has never been more autocratic. Ethical and moral concerns should have been addressed when China joined the WTO in 2001, irregardless China's political structure. China got a very good deal, western industrials as well, but at what human cost?

I wasn't interested in economy at the time, but I still remember clearly debates on talkshows between human rights advocates and people pushing trade deals and their arguments, it was a time where you could still publicly talk about the situation in Tibet. Today? Nobody would even dare.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#222

Post by thethethethe »

lmilcin wrote: post #22
1cvmask wrote: post #3

iPhone suppliers workers supposedly. Maybe we should also talk about the prison labor complex in the US as well then and the 13th Amendment: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires-p... https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... https://www.motherjones…

Why not write a single article to say there is injustice in the world and that we should fix it? By bringing those other topics to the discussion any effect is diluted. Feel free to bring it on its own merits, separately.

Ehh I actually think this is very relevant to the conversation here. There are many others in this thread who are criticizing US companies for operating in China when they are already based in a country that allows its own form of forced labor, sponsors coups abroad, starts wars, etc. Knowing this, you’d think people might understand why US companies look the other way when they profit off of forced Chinese labor.

This may seem like whataboutism but I am not trying to justify China’s behavior here—it is truly horrendous. I just think the general conversation on Hacker News around the ethics of US companies operating in China lacks this nuance. These issues are deeply interconnected and, by trying to force a separation, we all miss out on a balanced and critical analysis of the situation

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#223

Post by slivanes »

mgh2 wrote: post #133
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Apple fans don’t seem to care, as long as they are getting their magic, nothing else matters...

Apple wants forced labor in China and they are lobbying for a bill aimed at allowing forced labor in China:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#225

Post by AnthonyMouse »

berdario wrote: post #109
_pp0b wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right in your last paragraph. The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says. Any work done with involvement of Uyghur population by default is a situation of forced labour. That’s what the article says. However, using the term “slavery” gives CCP ammunition to fight back. They can point out that Uyghurs are paid. They can claim they are free…

> The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says ... > The situation anywhere is such that for anyone it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says FTFY As long as you have a police force and prisons, you'll never be able to NOT do what the state says. Now, it's a matter of: - do you disagree with what the state does? - do you agree wi…

You are obviously eliding the distinction between a state where officials can arbitrarily order you to do anything and a state bound by the rule of law and a constitution enforced by independent courts that limits what the executive and legislature can order you to do.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#226

Post by christophilus »

fhrow4484 wrote: post #186
christophilus wrote: post #34

I’ve decided to leave the Apple ecosystem in 2021. But the problem is not isolated to Apple. In fact, I’d be surprised if other, cheaper products aren’t quite a bit worse. Is there an electronics company that does a better job? (That’s not a rhetorical question.)

Even if a phone is made 100% in US or Europe, the raw materials for it like Cobalt is probably not immune to other types of human rights abuse: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/a... https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/12/p...

Sadly true. Years ago, I watched a brutal documentary on a mine where the life expectancy of the workers was insanely short. Their primary industrial clients were electronics manufacturers. I don’t know what I can do, though, as programming is my living.

I like the suggestion of always buying used goods. But obviously, a secondary market still encourages the primary market. It’s not a perfect solution.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#227

Post by rurp »

jvreagan wrote: post #171
sli wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are…

Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for their service and often end up working for Calfire upon release.

According to this article from a couple years ago the convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing those jobs after being released. https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-la...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#228

Post by matthewdgreen »

tiahura wrote: post #203
fishtacos wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.

I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the…

The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#229

Post by barnacled »

And yet Tim Cook has the cheek to get 'woke'. Apple could easily afford to build everything in a country that isn't an awful dictatorship running concentration camps and still earn obscene profits.

And yet they still somehow maintain this aura of being the 'good guys'...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#230

Post by JoshTko »

downrightmike wrote: post #201
_pp0b wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they are forced to work or go to detention. That is slavery. There's also the problem with them getting gutted for the organ transplants that China's own doctors have reported to be 4 times higher than they should be for the population size. So it is work, or go to detention and possibly get gutted.

What sources are you getting the organ transplants information from?
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