Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 820 posts

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#151

Post by simonh »

esarbe wrote: post #114

I'm so confused by all the downvotes for reasonable critique of either Apple or China, most of it silent without any justification given. Does anyone care to explain it to me?

I can only speculate, but I'll try. I haven't downvoted anyone in this thread BTW because I've been posting comments. When I post comments I prefer for them to stand as my input on the matter.

Most of the comments I'm seeing down voted seem to me to be somewhat extreme invective lacking in significant useful or interesting content. The bottom line is HN is about high signal low noise. Most of the downvotes are probably just on that criterion.

Another issue is that most of the people reading HN, including those vilifying Apple, probably own several dozen items manufactured in China. It seems somewhat unlikely that they can account for their supply chains in any meaningful way. There's also the mob rule aspect to all of this, it wouldn't be the first time 'evidence' had been found of Apple or their suppliers playing foul that turned out to be fake. Look up Mike Daisey some time. So lets all take some deep breaths and look at what's actually going on here.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#152

Post by alisonkisk »

nomoreusernames wrote: post #85
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

being sold at a slave market in the middle east, is quite different from being forced to work or being put in a detainment camp. a slave in this context has no human value. its owning a human being, not simply forcing them to work. it can even be hereditary. its practiced daily since a certain religious figure did it and granted his followers the same "right". (to own another human being)

Being a slave in China vs Middle East is not different in the key aspect that matters most. Perspecit and proportionality matters.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#153

Post by trevyn »

hdjtkrnrn wrote: post #48
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

What is an influencer to do? Switch to Android, like poor people? Nobody who matters is going to boycott Apple. Apple will counter with a plausible narrative, "we didn't know, we cancelled contracts, ..." and everything will be fine again. Oh, and a new woke diversity ad to show how much they care about muslims. And everybody will share and clap and feel good.

>What is an influencer to do?

Make a lot of noise about it. Use an iPhone and be very vocal about human rights abuses.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#154

Post by aaomidi »

strogonoff wrote: post #123
jordan_curve wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That’s of course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives than those who eventually died of m…

Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as t…

Yes. The US has slave labor too.

This distinction seems like us trying to protect our own interests in regards to keeping slavery legal in the United States too.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#155

Post by adrr »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...

Against the largest consumer/retail market in world? Not going to happen at the country level and risk reciprocal economic restrictions.

Only way to get china to change is have people vote with their wallets and refuse to buy Chinese made stuff but at the end of the day people just don't care and just want cheap stuff.

If you gave someone a choice between $100 IPhone made by slave child labor and $1000 IPhone that was made humane conditions at fair wages, i am willing to bet more than 75% of people take the $100 IPhone.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#156

Post by alisonkisk »

ficklepickle wrote: post #132
MaxHoppersGhost wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. No one is ditching their iPhone. It’s all about the blue text bubbles. If Americans would just switch to WhatsApp or something else like the rest of the world we could get past the Android stigma.

If that's what people care about, then humanity deserves what is coming to it.

What's coming? A hedonic exploitation of poor and oppressed humans? The global rich are largely happy to get that.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#157

Post by npteljes »

hertzrat wrote: post #117
delecti wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairphone is your best bet with smartphones, but I'm not sure if there's similarly ethically produced hardware of other types.

How’s the privacy on a fairphone? The same as regular android?

They ship regular Android, with bootloader locked, although they provide instructions on how to unlock.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#158

Post by diebeforei485 »

_pp0b wrote: post #41
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

"Modern Slavery" is a term of art. It has legal definitions in many countries including the US[1].

1. https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#159

Post by cforrester »

strogonoff wrote: post #123
jordan_curve wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That’s of course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives than those who eventually died of m…

Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as t…

I think you're thinking of "slavery" as a term applying exclusively to chattel slavery, but it's far from exclusive to that form. Bonded labour and forced labour are commonly recognized forms of slavery, as people are obligated to serve another under threat of violence.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#160

Post by woodruffw »

strogonoff wrote: post #123
jordan_curve wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That’s of course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives than those who eventually died of m…

Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as t…

You're conflating slavery and chattel slavery.

As others have mentioned, the 13th Amendment explicitly carves out forced labor as a legal form of slavery under a course of punishment. Referring to it as slavery does nothing to diminish the atrocities of chattel slavery.

Post reply on HN