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Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

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Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#41

Post by sedachv »

Maro wrote: post #23
tokenadult wrote: post #14

About a decade ago, when I was studying the history of mathematics, I noticed that in 1776, the world's greatest mathematician (Leonhard Euler) was in St. Petersburg, Russia, just when many of the world's greatest political scientists were either in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (the signers of the Declaration of Independence) or in various parts of Britain (e.g, Edmund Burke and Adam Smith). To this day, the Russian-sp…

Interesting. Where do you put Germans in all this?

It's not often mentioned today, but in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries the Germanic states were a massive source of high-skilled emigrants. In the 18th and somewhat the 19th centuries as professors and colonists to Russia and the USA, after WWI a large number of German engineers were employed in the USSR (most of them were expelled in 1937), and many more emigrated to the USA. The next large wave took place after WWII.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#42

Post by westiseast »

przemelek wrote: post #8

One thing ;-) Author of this text wrote: "You have to be pretty popular to get elected, so should we conclude that Chinese people in general look up to and admire their scientists?" But those in China's government wasn't elected in popular vote and for sure not in election like those in US or other western countries. So it isn't in this way that Chines people in general look up to and admire scientists, but Communist…

totally - I was wondering how the author could write something so obviously wrong like that?

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#43

Post by Duff »

lionhearted wrote: post #6

But, but, but... they're not democratic! If only they'd put more power in the hands of the common man, they too could enjoy such luminous choices for statesmen as McCain vs. Obama, Bush II vs. Kerry, Bush II vs Gore, Dole vs. Clinton, Bush I vs. Clinton... ...we gotta keep saber rattling that our way is better than theirs. Boo China, boo. Edit: To the downvoter - okay, I'm joking around. But which of these premises d…

Communist governments have usually attracted intellectuals to higher levels of power -- the results so far haven't been uplifting.

I don't think that a comparison of the US system vs. China is going to produce a clear "winner", only a list of pros/cons whose weighting will be shaped by your perceptions and bias.

The explosive growth of China hides most of the warts of the system. When you have economic growth so fast that new, uninhabited cities get built, there's obviously some excess and policy issues at play.

The US is an imperial power, and the conduct of policy and statesmanship changes in that role. While the President is the front-man and sets the agenda, the work is done and policy is made by anonymous officials in the sprawling bureaucracy. And I betcha if you analyzed a Chinese and American bureaucrat, you would find that they look, act and think alike.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#44

Post by stcredzero »

Maro wrote: post #23
tokenadult wrote: post #14

About a decade ago, when I was studying the history of mathematics, I noticed that in 1776, the world's greatest mathematician (Leonhard Euler) was in St. Petersburg, Russia, just when many of the world's greatest political scientists were either in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (the signers of the Declaration of Independence) or in various parts of Britain (e.g, Edmund Burke and Adam Smith). To this day, the Russian-sp…

Interesting. Where do you put Germans in all this?

In World War II, German military tactics nerds were able to find an initial advantage. Fortunately, the rulers (Nazis) were fuzzy-headed populists who believed in mysticism and half-baked distortions of economic and scientific theories, so it wasn't the engineers who ruled -- it was still the jocks and popular kids. By the end of the war, it was the allies who had significant technical advantages in military hardware, sensing equipment, and cryptography.

EDIT: There were also many instances of higher-ups impeding technical advances that could have been decisive, like stealth bombers.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#45

Post by westiseast »

potatolicious wrote: post #20
pyre wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's maybe a trade-off? Sure we have bozos for politicians in the US, but in the US government corruption usually doesn't lead to people 'disappearing.' Though we're definitely making great strides in that direction.

You're right, but the trend in the US is towards more repression, while the trend in China is towards less . We are destroying our middle class, they are creating and growing theirs at an incredible rate. The attitude that I get from a lot of Chinese is that they feel the present government is a necessary evil - i.e., in exchange for many political and religious freedoms, they get progress, and an immense improvement…

We've all got different friends, but I'd offer a different perspective. Most Chinese I know dislike their government, but are apathetic towards it, or too busy trying to live their own lives.

And China is recently tending towards more sophisticated repression, rather than less of it in general. Perhaps the US and China will end up in the same place!

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#46

Post by stcredzero »

sedachv wrote: post #41
Maro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Where do you put Germans in all this?

It's not often mentioned today, but in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries the Germanic states were a massive source of high-skilled emigrants. In the 18th and somewhat the 19th centuries as professors and colonists to Russia and the USA, after WWI a large number of German engineers were employed in the USSR (most of them were expelled in 1937), and many more emigrated to the USA. The next large wave took place after…

Just as Werner Von Braun's character in "The Right Stuff" said: "NO, our Germans are Better!"

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#47

Post by lotusleaf1987 »

lionhearted wrote: post #22
lotusleaf1987 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky has a great quote about this: In the U.S. there is basically one party - The Business Party. It has two factions, called Democrats and Republicans, which are somewhat different but carry out variations of the same policies. By and large, I am opposed to those policies, as is most of the population. I'm not against business, but it shouldn't be our singular goal as a society.

You know, I think I get where you're coming from because I felt the same way until I (1) opened up a business, and (2) spent significant time outside the USA. Honestly, the business/commerce in the USA is one of the best things about it. As for Chomsky - well, he's completely discredited to me after comparing his writings about Southeast Asia to spending significant amounts of time in SE Asia. Also the ex-Communist c…

It sounds like you're saying you have to accept all or none of Chomsky's ideas. Just because I quoted him doesn't mean I believe everything he's written, in fact quite to the contrary.

However... I do feel the quote above accurately reflects the sentiments of your first comment, which is why I posted it. It wasn't meant to reflect the entirety of Chomsky's work.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#48

Post by stcredzero »

Apocryphon wrote: post #34
orenmazor wrote: post #13

well that's just great. how many layers do you have to unpeel from our government before you find anybody that isn't a lawyer.

Different national political cultures, apparently. http://www.economist.com/node/13496638?story_id=13496638

WHEN Barack Obama met Hu Jintao, his Chinese counterpart, at the G20 summit in London, it was an encounter not just between two presidents, but also between two professions and mindsets. A lawyer, trained to argue from first principles and haggle over words, was speaking to an engineer, who knew how to build physical structures and keep them intact.

The Chinese should build a Space Pier, in the form of a massive ramp with a huge accelerator on it.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#49

Post by lionhearted »

Duff wrote: post #43
lionhearted wrote: post #6

But, but, but... they're not democratic! If only they'd put more power in the hands of the common man, they too could enjoy such luminous choices for statesmen as McCain vs. Obama, Bush II vs. Kerry, Bush II vs Gore, Dole vs. Clinton, Bush I vs. Clinton... ...we gotta keep saber rattling that our way is better than theirs. Boo China, boo. Edit: To the downvoter - okay, I'm joking around. But which of these premises d…

Communist governments have usually attracted intellectuals to higher levels of power -- the results so far haven't been uplifting. I don't think that a comparison of the US system vs. China is going to produce a clear "winner", only a list of pros/cons whose weighting will be shaped by your perceptions and bias. The explosive growth of China hides most of the warts of the system. When you have economic growth so fast…

Nuanced comment here, good analysis. I agree with a lot, but two nitpicks about the first point -

1. I'd say Communist movements attract intellectuals. Communist governments usually do not employ those intellectuals for very long after taking power.

2. Despite the name and symbols, I don't think China is actually Communist any more. I don't know what to call them. If they remain a world power and continue to thrive, I'd bet quite a lot that a new word will be coined for their precise political/economic/geographical/military mix - there's quite literally no comps in history for what they're doing right now.

Re: Eight Out Of China’s Top Nine Government Officials Are Scientists

#50

Post by shmulkey18 »

Perhaps this should cause some reflection on the following question: why do scientists seem to be disproportionately inclined to serve authoritarian regimes?

My guess is that scientists believe that people like themselves -- people whose ability in one field they imagine transfers to many others -- should control the world, and those that they consider their intellectual inferiors should shut up and surrender control to cognitive ubermenschen.

Unfortunately, that idea hasn't worked out too well in the past.

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