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Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

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Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#201
post #136

I'm more interested in the lifetime of the medium. Durable backup media for consumers is still a holy grail as I understand. M-DISC didn't hold up to their 1000 year lifetime promise. Archival-grade DVD's are also not good enough as I understand. Syylex went bankrupt. I want a consumer-grade backup medium that can provide at least a 100 years of lifetime. That said, I was able to recover 90% of the voice recordings m…

> M-DISC didn't hold up Since I have a lot of stuff on M-DISC, you’ve now got me worried. Link? Any other info? I don’t need 1000 years but what is the lifespan?

Here it is, it basically performed as the same as archival grade DVDs: https://www.lne.fr/sites/default/files/inline-files/syylex-g...

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#202
post #136

I'm more interested in the lifetime of the medium. Durable backup media for consumers is still a holy grail as I understand. M-DISC didn't hold up to their 1000 year lifetime promise. Archival-grade DVD's are also not good enough as I understand. Syylex went bankrupt. I want a consumer-grade backup medium that can provide at least a 100 years of lifetime. That said, I was able to recover 90% of the voice recordings m…

The lifetime of the medium is half the equation. The biggest problem imho is the lifetime of the device. Say I give you an old floppy drive for 8" floppies from the seventies. Where would you connect it?

Tapes are uniquely terrible at this. I'd argue it's the Achilles' heel of the medium, even moreso than the actual limitations of linear tape.

First off, the drives themselves are going to be expensive brand-new. You're going to be paying thousands of dollars for a drive, and it's probably going to have some weird interconnect that you'll have to spend even more money and waste a PCIe slot on an adapter in order to use the drive. Most common is SAS or Fibre Channel; although there's at least one company selling drives in Thunderbolt enclosures for the Mac market.

(Aside from all that, SAS is actually pretty cool for things like hard drive enclosures, since it has SATA compatibility. I have a jury-rigged disk shelf built out of an old HP SAS expander, a slightly-modified CD duplicator case, and some 5 1/4" hard drive bays.)

Second, tape formats are constantly moving. LTO and IBM 3592 come out with a new format every 2-3 years and backwards compatibility is limited. Generally speaking you can only write one generation behind on LTO and read two generations back. So, if you want a format that's got drives still being made for it, you'll need to migrate every 5-7 years. Sure, the actual tape is shelf-stable for longer, but you're going to be buying spare drives or jumping on eBay if you want to keep old tapes around that long.

(eBay is actually not a bad place to buy used tape drives, but the pricing varies wildly. It's perfect for hobbyists and small-fry IT outfits looking for cheap backup media. Absolutely terrible if you're a large outfit with reliability guarantees and support agreements to maintain.)

Third, actually using a tape drive is a nightmare. First off, Windows hasn't shipped tape software since 2003 (I think?), so you'll be in the market for proprietary backup solutions. Second, if you're just writing data directly to the tape, you will shoe-shine for days. Common IT practice is to actually have a second disk array sitting in front of the tapes as a write cache and custom software to copy data to the tapes at full speed once all the slow nonsequential IO is done. Reading from tape doesn't have to worry about this as much, but the fact that you had to use custom software just to archive your files means that you now have proprietary archive formats to deal with. So you can have tapes that rely on both having access to working drives and licenses for proprietary backup utilities.

(Of course, if you had decently fast SSDs and a parallel archival utility, you could sustain decent write speeds on tape. I actually wrote this myself as an experiment: https://github.com/kmeisthax/rapidtar and it can saturate the LTO-5 drive I tested this with.)

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#203
post #194
post #136

I'm more interested in the lifetime of the medium. Durable backup media for consumers is still a holy grail as I understand. M-DISC didn't hold up to their 1000 year lifetime promise. Archival-grade DVD's are also not good enough as I understand. Syylex went bankrupt. I want a consumer-grade backup medium that can provide at least a 100 years of lifetime. That said, I was able to recover 90% of the voice recordings m…

Use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchive and add as much redundancy as you like. A lot cheaper to over-provision, than to create the uber-archive medium.

That's a good idea regardless of the medium, but if your flash disk becomes completely unreadable in 15 years, PAR doesn't help you much, does it?

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#204
post #136

I'm more interested in the lifetime of the medium. Durable backup media for consumers is still a holy grail as I understand. M-DISC didn't hold up to their 1000 year lifetime promise. Archival-grade DVD's are also not good enough as I understand. Syylex went bankrupt. I want a consumer-grade backup medium that can provide at least a 100 years of lifetime. That said, I was able to recover 90% of the voice recordings m…

Brings back memories of a great remix contest in 2006 where the digital copies of analog tape tracks from Peter Gabriel’s “Shock the Monkey” were made available to remixers.

To my surprise the pitch of the samples was a little lower (and varying ever so slightly over the duration of the song) than what you’d have expected with a440 tuning. It baffled me, since I expected some of the early digital synths used in the original sessions should habe been rock solid 440 tuning.

And that’s how I learned about “tape stretch” where analog audio tape stretches just enough to make the pitch of everything a few cents lower over long period of time.

p.s. I ended up applying digital pitch correction, so I could “jam along” with my own synths :-)

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#205
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was working in vfx we employed a guy who's sole job was to fly back and forth from LA to Melbourne with pelican cases full of hard drives. It was faster and more secure since we were working on air gapped networks.

Hopefully this was cabin baggage and not something left unattended for minutes on the baggage belt

Unattended for 14+ hours you mean. A baggage handler on the departing side could be bribed to steal it and you would have half a day of unfettered access before the courier on the plane even knew it was missing.

Of course you don’t check it if it’s that critical.

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#206
post #99

Aw, c'mon chaps! Can we just admire the tech for a second? > Data on the tape is stored at a record-breaking density of 317 gigabytes per square inch... > When tape is being read it is streamed over the head at a speed of about 15 km/h and with our new servo technologies we are still able to position the tape head with an accuracy that is about 1.5 times the width of a DNA molecule.

Loveliest part was the part right before that: “Just let me geek out for a second” Absolutely IBM storage person, the more geeking out the better!

"Let me just surveillance out for a second"

Guess where this will have the biggest impact in the next decade - the long term storage of billions of personally invading surveillance data points forever...

Seriously, this tech will be abused. Against everyone. Facial recognition much? Zoom data? TikTok Data in a very compact physical form-factor?

Utah and China will LOVE this!

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't doesn't mean other people don't. May as well condemn someone for following a sport you don't like.

Asking "why" doesn't imply condemnation, does it? At HN we assume best intention, asking why is how we learn about other people and their reasoning. Of course it may be different than ours. But isn't that how we learn and are exposed to new ideas? IMHO we should encourage more respectful "why?" questions.

It has nothing to do with intent. It’s tone deaf to ask why someone would want to preserve memories, especially if it’s based on your one anecdote of yourself not wanting them.

It’s like asking why someone would want to spread ashes or preserve an old piece of rickety furniture a long lost relative built.

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a dream job for a temporary amount of time. And very effective too. I assume the VFX studio is in Melbourne?

Maybe if they’re flying first class? Otherwise that sounds like a nightmare that would require an insanely high paycheck.

If you're flying back and forth on that route that often, you're going to get upgraded quickly, I would imagine. I've done 6 flights a month domestic and have been upgraded to first class for free fairly often.

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a dream job for a temporary amount of time. And very effective too. I assume the VFX studio is in Melbourne?

Maybe if they’re flying first class? Otherwise that sounds like a nightmare that would require an insanely high paycheck.

>Otherwise that sounds like a nightmare that would require an insanely high paycheck.

If the courier in question is 6'2" that might be the case, but I suspect if the person was much smaller and is a heavy sleeper, that it wouldn't be too bad.

Re: Fujifilm Created a Magnetic Tape That Can Store 580 Terabytes

#210
post #136

I'm more interested in the lifetime of the medium. Durable backup media for consumers is still a holy grail as I understand. M-DISC didn't hold up to their 1000 year lifetime promise. Archival-grade DVD's are also not good enough as I understand. Syylex went bankrupt. I want a consumer-grade backup medium that can provide at least a 100 years of lifetime. That said, I was able to recover 90% of the voice recordings m…

The lifetime of the medium is half the equation. The biggest problem imho is the lifetime of the device. Say I give you an old floppy drive for 8" floppies from the seventies. Where would you connect it?

Floppies are an interesting case because the protocols and physical specifications are all documented publicly, which means that one could literally build a drive from scratch today --- the trickiest part being the heads, but considering that they are many orders of magnitude lower density than HDDs, it would not be a big obstacle in the future.

(I believe 8" floppy drives have the same interface as 5.25" ones --- and there's no shortage of adapters from the retrocomputing community for those, some of them even open-source.)

Tape is far more closed, AFAIK most of the common formats are proprietary and the specs are behind NDAs and other walls.

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