Live data from Hacker News

The Philosophy of Anger

bostonreview.net

31–40 of 76 posts

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#31

> Emotions are how we humans do morality. First of all, there is no such thing as "morality". It's just a way for elites to control commoners so that they behave in predictable ways. Emotions are responses that help us learn and survive. Anger is one such emotion. It helps us destroy enemies. But it can also make us short-sighted and do things that are not good in the long run, so when it happens, we need to take our…

> First of all, there is no such thing as "morality". There is absolutely a solid sense of morality baked into (at the very least) primate brains. Give this a read. The science is solid: https://righteousmind.com/ Or this if you're impatient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg > Nothing belongs to nobody. People take whatever they can get away with. What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivi…

>There is absolutely a solid sense of morality baked into (at the very least) primate brains.

No, there isn't.

>Give this a read. The science is solid:

https://righteousmind.com/

"The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion?". Hmm...

So, from your comment, I'm guessing that the answer in the book to the question in the subtitle is that there is some baked in "morality" in us, that evolution gave us? If so, that's extremely misguided.

If there was such a thing, it would be at least somewhat similar across all human tribes and cultures. That's not the case at all. It's vastly different throughout history and across cultures because these things have everything to do with power dynamics and resource distribution.

>https://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg

And? Monkeys have hierarchies. If they repeated this experiment but swappped the monkeys, it would turn out differently. The experiment is designed and orchestrated to show some sort of "equal pay" nonsense. What is happening is that the monkey on the left is socially higher than the one on the right... and hence it is used to claiming better food for itself first. When it sees the other one gets it, it gets pissed off. When these higher ups get injured, get sick or get old, someone else claims the status. It's all power dynamics and fight over resources. It has nothing to do with "morality".

> What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivism? Marxism? Freebasing Solipsism?

I don't know what your western intellectuals call it but if I were to translate it to English, it would roughly translate to "reality".

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#32

> Emotions are how we humans do morality. First of all, there is no such thing as "morality". It's just a way for elites to control commoners so that they behave in predictable ways. Emotions are responses that help us learn and survive. Anger is one such emotion. It helps us destroy enemies. But it can also make us short-sighted and do things that are not good in the long run, so when it happens, we need to take our…

> First of all, there is no such thing as "morality". There is absolutely a solid sense of morality baked into (at the very least) primate brains. Give this a read. The science is solid: https://righteousmind.com/ Or this if you're impatient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg > Nothing belongs to nobody. People take whatever they can get away with. What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivi…

>What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivism? Marxism? Freebasing Solipsism?

I'm only somewhat subscribe to one of those philosophies and none of them are treated very charitably by you. Besides that, as much as I disagree with the statement you're replying to, it's not a philosophy, it's an empirical statement. Whether people take whatever they can get away with is irrelevant to whether they should do so.

By the way, none of those philosophies assume GP's argument.

>There is absolutely a solid sense of morality baked into (at the very least) primate brains.

Moral anti-realists will tell you this isn't a very convincing argument. The fact that people believe in morality does not mean we have access to the world of moral facts. Moral facts are supposed to motivate us inherently, which is a perculiar quality for a fact to have.

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#33
> Assuming that I understood that what I was taking was yours, and that I was not acting under some kind of duress [...] my theft indicates that I see the world in value-terms opposed to yours. Your "bad" is my "good." If you are to hold me accountable for this, instead of letting me off the hook, you will make this (accidental, adventitious) opposition a principle and rule for our interactions.

> Revenge allows you to turn the principle of my action into a rule for your conduct toward me: you make my bad your good. This is the opposite of trying to undo or reverse my action. You hold me accountable by holding onto my theft, refusing to forget it, turning its one-off opposition between our interests into a rule to which I am now subject. [...] Angry people sometimes describe their vengeance as "teaching someone a lesson," and this is quite literally true: you make my wronging of you into a general principle and then "educate" me by imposing it on me.

This is an important lesson for those more naturally inclined toward forgiveness (though I would say it's important because it says something about what successful rehabilitation or education more often look like, or at least involve, in real life).

Speaking personally, it's a principle that it took me quite a lot of experience to understand.

> Educating me in this way is not easy on you: making my evil your good has psychological costs, among them the fact that you divert yourself away from what would otherwise be good for you. You must remodel your psychological landscape into one devoted to regulating mine. [...] I've colonized your fantasy life.

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, there is no such thing as "morality". There is absolutely a solid sense of morality baked into (at the very least) primate brains. Give this a read. The science is solid: https://righteousmind.com/ Or this if you're impatient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg > Nothing belongs to nobody. People take whatever they can get away with. What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivi…

> What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivism? Marxism? Freebasing Solipsism? Not OP but I assumed this was a version of nihilistic error theory that led to the "no such thing as morality" and then from there erases all idea of ownership or rights or anything. From there it's all just a dog eat dog jungle view of all of the world and maybe you sprinkle in some Hobbesian views of the social contract.…

It's worth noting that the error theory only erases the objectivity of moral statements. It does not provide any way forward in itself. Most moral error theorists actually subscribe to the idea that we should pretend that morality is real in most instances. This is known as moral fictionalism. There are several other ways forward. Some, for instance, say that we now have more freedom to experiment with "morality" given that we are no longer governed by it.

Only Stirner and "moral abolitionists" believe we should stop talking in moral terms. Once the moral error theory is accepted, it's only a matter of practicality as to what one should do with moral statements and sentiments.

As such, there's plenty of room for other statements not based in morality - ones from practicality, and normative statements which are not facts, but personal opinions.

I can still think murder is wrong; I can still argue for there to be laws against murder, and I can still be horrified by it. What I can't say is that murder is wrong (in the moral sense) for everyone everywhere, and that by murdering you are contrevening a universal law. There is no commandment (says the moral error theorist), moral, religious, or otherwise, that we must obey.

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of unhinged philosophy are you smoking? Objectivism? Marxism? Freebasing Solipsism? Not OP but I assumed this was a version of nihilistic error theory that led to the "no such thing as morality" and then from there erases all idea of ownership or rights or anything. From there it's all just a dog eat dog jungle view of all of the world and maybe you sprinkle in some Hobbesian views of the social contract.…

It's worth noting that the error theory only erases the objectivity of moral statements. It does not provide any way forward in itself. Most moral error theorists actually subscribe to the idea that we should pretend that morality is real in most instances. This is known as moral fictionalism. There are several other ways forward. Some, for instance, say that we now have more freedom to experiment with "morality" giv…

Oh, I'm an error theorist myself, no need to tell me! The key modifier there for me was "nihilistic" error theory, aka one that gives up on making sense of a world without an "objective" morality. No intention of calling error theory generally crazy or unhinged. In some ways I feel bad for OP - the view seems quite unhinged when read together, but really I would view it as one misstep/lack of step on the way to interesting truth.

FWIW, my personal way forward is something like determinism + moral psychology + Rawls theory of justice if that makes any sense.

Based on this thread plus your bio Spinoza quote I'm guessing we likely align on a good deal :)

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on what you mean by “fundamental”. Anger is typically considered a secondary emotion, stemming from primary emotions. While I’m not sure it is possible to get rid of anger as OP suggests, it may not be outside the realm of possibility to create thought patterns that lead your primary emotions to secondary emotions other than anger.

I find this a little bit more plausible, but still don’t believe it. I don’t think we’re in control of what we feel to the degree that we can redirect our thoughts and entirely or mostly prevent certain feelings. I do believe you can construct defenses that hide your anger from yourself, like GP perhaps has or Buddhist monks, but I believe the anger is still there under the surface.

> I don’t think we’re in control of what we feel to the degree that we can redirect our thoughts and entirely or mostly prevent certain feelings

Not everyone is like you.

If I want an emotion I have to cultivate it, otherwise I'll get no emotions. People don't like that, so I've learned to fake emotions, but that doesn't mean I actually feel them.

For example I never bother actually cultivating real anger. But sometimes anger is useful so I'll act like I'm angry. But it's just an act, there is no actual anger there.

When I actually (and rarely) get an actual emotion I'll examine it like it's a stranger "wow that's so cool how it's making me feel, that's such a strange thing to experience".

If it helps: My "I", and my "mind" are two different things. And sometimes my "I" watches my "mind" and wonders "why did it do that?".

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I made a conscious effort during university to eradicate (a) drama and (b) anger from my life. It is almost surreal the extent to which I succeeded. When I see people experiencing these emotions, I almost marvel at the novelty of them because I haven't had them in so long. I distinctly remember watching a man one time walking on the sidewalks of NYC screaming into his phone with pure rage - "the angriest m…

This seems delusional. I don’t believe it’s possible to have eradicated the feeling of anger, no matter what you claim. It’s a fundamental feeling. Acting on your anger is a different story, but claiming to have muted the feeling utterly is preposterous.

I think there might be a couple of things going on here: 1. Slightly differing definitions of what constitutes 'angry', and 2. Dramatically varying subjective experiences of anger.

For example, in the case of #1, I usually separate 'frustration' from 'anger', but I could see someone else bundling them together. They share a lot of physiological effects, but I generally think of anger as a more focused and directed feeling. I could be frustrated while failing to debug something, but not meaningfully angry, because the bug is not an agent with malicious intent (or other common target of anger).

And for #2, I've known people who get mad and have an extremely hard time controlling it. Someone or something slights them, it ruins their mood, and then sustains. And they're aware of it the whole time, wishing they weren't mad, because they hate feeling that way. But they're still mad.

In comparison, I seem to be lucky. I have gotten genuinely mad before, but exceedingly rarely- maybe a few times in my entire life, and only then mostly in response to years of sustained bad behavior, and only when I was much younger. I wasn't trying to be a paragon of stoicism, I just don't get angry very often by default.

Stack a little bit of effort on top of a baseline like that, and it's pretty easy to go beyond merely not acting on anger to smoothing away even the subjective experience of it. Maybe a short and mild response, here and there, but it almost always immediately fades.

I strongly doubt I'm the most placid person in the world, so there are probably people out there who are even less angry by default. I bet others have put more effort into controlling their anger, too. It seems likely that "eradication" of anger is within the realm of possible for some.

Re: The Philosophy of Anger

#40
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that the error theory only erases the objectivity of moral statements. It does not provide any way forward in itself. Most moral error theorists actually subscribe to the idea that we should pretend that morality is real in most instances. This is known as moral fictionalism. There are several other ways forward. Some, for instance, say that we now have more freedom to experiment with "morality" giv…

Oh, I'm an error theorist myself, no need to tell me! The key modifier there for me was "nihilistic" error theory, aka one that gives up on making sense of a world without an "objective" morality. No intention of calling error theory generally crazy or unhinged. In some ways I feel bad for OP - the view seems quite unhinged when read together, but really I would view it as one misstep/lack of step on the way to inter…

>the view seems quite unhinged when read together, but really I would view it as one misstep/lack of step on the way to interesting truth.

Why "unhinged"? I don't know philosophy and English is not my language but I'll try to generalize:

Living organisms take resources that they can, specially if there's a net positive gain from it. This happens because those that gain the most net positive tend to reproduce more and hence these traits (i.e. tendency to take resources which are a net benefit) gets passed on. Does evolutionary theory disagree with this?

Humans are just a special (as opposed to general, I don't believe there's anything "special" special about humans) case of it.

Let's say that there were just two human tribes. If the tribes are not equally powerful, the powerful one will kill most of them and take all the resources and the women.

Let's imagine a case where they are almost equally powerful. Then, conflict would cause mutual destruction and it makes it worth it to have an understanding between them... in which they don't kill each other and not take each others' stuff.

You could argue such cost benefits between families in tribes or individuals in families from the same framework.

None of this needs "morality". You could argue that the very set of rules which make for an optimal balance between individual, family, tribal and inter-tribal interests is in fact "morality"... but when the resources and the power balance changes, whatever "morals" people thought existed will disappear and will be replaced by new set of "morals".

Post reply on HN