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No Country for Old Developers

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11–20 of 94 posts

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#11
I'm 51 and I don't think I have ever experienced ageism in IT. I just switched to a new area (big data) one year ago for instance and had no problem finding a job. Maybe it's because I live in Europe and in the USA things are different, who knows.

But there is one thing though that can make switching jobs more difficult for senior developers, and that is the salary. Chances are that when you're older you are supporting kids, a house, or you just have become used to a higher standard of living. So you will probably look for a higher salary in a new job and yes, that limits your opportunities.

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#12
I’ve only ever experienced salary-ism which is just a side effect of being in the industry for so long.

The issue with getting decent reviews and salary bumps is that eventually you’re making more money than many people are willing to take on.

I’m 57 and working with a lot of people my age. We’ve hired a lot of older people.

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#13
I don't deny ageism existing. It surely does.

But I regularly see "I want to reboot my career" mixed into the conversation and I wonder if the industry just doesn't value the decades of generalized experience a veteran brings to a rebooted career.

And if they don't value that, why not focus on the hungry 22 year olds who are easier to fool into focusing on work rather than life or family?

I think this is truly boneheaded, but that wouldn't surprise me...

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#14
post #2

I'm 37 I thought I was too old but I decided to start all over again. Took some courses from Coursera about Deep Learning and last month started competing in kaggle and similar competitions sites. I earned 7k dollars but the most important is that I'm learning a lot like if I was in the university again, I think I'm learning even faster.

I don’t want to be a downer but don’t you think it’s just way easier to learn now because we have so many great resources available to us?

Of course and even more for me that I’m in Latin America and now I can easily access to resources from US and Europe

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#15
post #5
post #2

I'm 37 I thought I was too old but I decided to start all over again. Took some courses from Coursera about Deep Learning and last month started competing in kaggle and similar competitions sites. I earned 7k dollars but the most important is that I'm learning a lot like if I was in the university again, I think I'm learning even faster.

I'm 36 and have not once experienced blatant ageism. I keep my skills current and have pivoted my career many times when things got less interesting or I could tell the market was falling off. I went sysadmin>neteng>syseng>SRE and will have to pivot in 4-5 years again, probably, once some other culture-breaker has hit distributed systems for the 3rd time in my career. Now, I don't have kids so you might go "hey you'v…

Had the opposite experience in London and I am not even 36 yet.

Could quote almost 10 companies that cancelled the interview in early stage or didn't interview at all, saying too much experience and worry I'd leave after 6 months for a better company (higher pay).

Gave up on interviewing for startups and medium companies. Get a job in a top tier company or starve to death. (Top tier is mostly finance in London because FAANG don't have big offices here).

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#16
post #5
post #2

I'm 37 I thought I was too old but I decided to start all over again. Took some courses from Coursera about Deep Learning and last month started competing in kaggle and similar competitions sites. I earned 7k dollars but the most important is that I'm learning a lot like if I was in the university again, I think I'm learning even faster.

I'm 36 and have not once experienced blatant ageism. I keep my skills current and have pivoted my career many times when things got less interesting or I could tell the market was falling off. I went sysadmin>neteng>syseng>SRE and will have to pivot in 4-5 years again, probably, once some other culture-breaker has hit distributed systems for the 3rd time in my career. Now, I don't have kids so you might go "hey you'v…

Thanks for sharing your experience! I think this “They wanted a strong desire to mentor and cultivate teams” is a fantastic insight!

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#17
"Young people are just smarter." - Mark Zuckerberg

Spoken like a naive individual without much in the way of life experience. Keep taking the pills, Mark.

Onto more positive points, whilst I have no doubt that ageism exists in our industry, there are also companies with a more enlightened view of age and experience.

I tend to prefer hiring people with more experience, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, when I can. I particularly like those who've worked for a variety of different companies during their careers (avoids institutionalisation).

Some of the benefits of more experienced staff:

- Tend to take a more rounded view of what they're working on, and find it easier to see different perspectives

- Related to this they seem better able to focus on delivering business and customer value

- Again, related: less interested in tech for tech's sake, and less prone to chasing fads

- Further, related: less idealistic, more pragmatic

- Better social skills; easier to get along with

- Less emotional: more mature and settled

- Better able to manage stress and work/life balance

- Lower sense of entitlement

- Have often picked up mentoring and coaching skills that can help develop others

Of course, there are always exceptions for both experienced and inexperienced staff (and we're very fortunate/have been very careful about our less experienced hires), but these are benefits I've often observed.

As I've already implied, we hire people at all levels of experience (with the exception, so far, of fresh grads), but having a good number of experienced staff is I think one of the great strengths of our team, and I view our senior staff as our greatest asset. They're very good, for example, at helping to develop less experienced team members, or wrangling difficult and sensitive issues.

(Note that I haven't talked much about technical skills here. Partly this is because we work with a deliberately boring stack - I want us to build great, cutting edge products with solid, reliable, boring tech, not be constantly hindered from building by the problems of the bleeding edge. Mostly it's because, having had to pick up different languages and technologies over the years, and having worked with plenty of developers who've done the same, I don't generally regard specific tech skills as that important. We use SQL Server, for example. But if you've worked with any relational database for any decent length of time during your career you'll get on fine with it, regardless of whether that's Postgres, Oracle, or even MySQL or SQLite. Likewise it's not that hard to learn to query MongoDB or ElasticSearch, although the latter is a bit nuts, even though the syntax is different to SQL. It's not different enough to get in a tizzy about, and I really wish recruiters would wise up to this. Some have, most haven't, in my experience.)

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#19
post #6

"But skills can beat ageism" I dislike this typical response, because it comes close to blaming the victim, and indeed many people do blame the victims of ageism, attributing stereotypical attitudes to them. Imagine claiming "skills can beat racism" or "skills can beat sexism". No, nothing beats discrimination, because it was never based on the existence or absence of skills. Rather, prejudiced people take one look a…

"Skills can beat ageism" also ignores the fact that many people only have the aptitude for average skills. In a system without discrimination that's not a problem because there are plenty of jobs for average developers.

Re: No Country for Old Developers

#20
From someone solidly in the age bracket that is supposedly discriminated against, what utter nonsense.

This is a bunch of hand-wavey garbage with no actual data backing it up. Some anonymous "surveys" and uncited statements of fact starting with "Chances are" or "in some cases."

> Even if you get offered a position you will likely be offered a lower wage if going for a junior job.

Yes, that's how it works. You get paid for the position. If you have the experience for a senior role, don't go for a junior job and expect a senior paycheck. If you don't have the experience and can only apply for a junior role, why should you get paid more? Your mortgage and kids' tuition is irrelevant to the value you're providing to the company.

> For a 50-year-old it may prove a struggle to make a career change pay off and could take several years to climb the ladder to reach a livable wage.

Isn't the common refrain to 20-somethings that they should just eat out less and live with roommates if they're not making enough money? If it's that easy then the 50-year-old should do it, too.

I've worked for small mom-and-pop companies and large public corporations. Every supposed example of "ageism" I've seen in real life is much more about attitude than age.

> Training and promotion opportunities may not go your way if you’re older. They may be offered to younger staff

Again with the hand-wavey "may not go your way...may be offered," but I don't accept the premise anyway. In my experience training is allocated based on how enthusiastically someone wants to get training, and how willing they are to follow-up and ask about funding, getting time on the work schedule, etc. If your attitude is "I know everything I need to know to get my job done," the company is unlikely to go out of their way to spend thousands on training you.

I've seen the "f you, I know everything I need to" attitude from 27 year old jerks, and I've seen 60-something programmers tearing through the framework du jour without any trouble. It has nothing to do with stagnation and everything to do with willingness to learn, willingness to listen, willing to do something new, and whether or not you think everyone has something they could teach you.

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