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California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

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Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#241

Post by zepto »

ashtonkem wrote: post #239
zepto wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaslighting is about undermining someone’s perception of what is going on, and then using that to manipulate them. Telling the parent that the GP is not making an argument that they are plainly making , looks like an attempt at gaslighting. I did read what you said. It would be valid if the GP hadn’t written what I quoted. The parent was responding reasonably to what was written, and you seemed to be trying to persua…

The need to turn differences in reading and opinion into a no holds barred psychological fight is genuinely toxic. You and I have read the same post differently, and your attempt to villainize me as a gasligther is not something that should be accepted in polite conversation. Knock it off. Furthermore, if you're going to accuse someone of gaslighting, then do everyone the favor of actually paraphrasing their argument…

“The need to turn differences in reading and opinion into a no holds barred psychological fight is genuinely toxic.“

I agree. That’s why I think it’s a bad idea to tell someone that something they are responding to isn’t present. Avoiding bulverism is a good step to avoid bringing things into the psychological realm. Knock it off!

I get that you have a different understanding which is reasonable, but that can be expressed without telling someone they are misunderstanding.

“If you're going to accuse someone of gaslighting, then do everyone the favor of actually paraphrasing their arguments correctly.”

I didn’t paraphrase anyone’s arguments. I copied and pasted. Unless you have edited your comment in the meantime, what I said you said is literally a copy and paste from your comment.

I also didn’t accuse you - I asked if you were doing it, because that’s what it looked like. I see a lot of casual gaslighting of this kind in public discussions.

The GP clearly is arguing that Scandinavian counties are run better. They are also arguing that NZ is run better than most of the US, and that the US is more poorly run than other countries.

You read the GP’s comment through the concept of a ‘core’ argument, which excludes some parts of what the GP said as simply examples. I think the parent reasonably doesn’t use that concept, and sees more than one argument being made.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#242

Post by robocat »

zepto wrote: post #235
robocat wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think the comparison is valid then why not tell us what could California or the US adopt from NZ that would make things better? I understand that “look at what other countries do” is hand-wavy meta-advice. However, that is the best advice I have to give. I could drill down on a particular policy, but how does that help? The general rule is that comparing your systems against other countries is worthwhile, an…

“The general rule is that comparing your systems against other countries is worthwhile, and is what most every other country manages to do for breakfast. ” If most every other country managed to do this for breakfast, most every other country would be ahead of even the best parts of the US. The fact that the US and Europe as a whole are roughly comparable proves this simply can’t be correct. “Dismissing other countri…

> the entire message you are delivering here is to attack America with this strawman and claim (now) that almost everyone else is governing better.

I am trying to help - you are perceiving that as an attack and you continue to incorrectly try and tell me how I think - an obvious impossibility.

> and claim (now) that almost everyone else is governing better.

Throughout this thread I talk about looking to countries that are doing things better, obviously not every country!

You choose to misrepresent a throwaway joke comment as having some deeper meaning: “What most every other country manages to do for breakfast” is an allusion to the now mostly obsolete habit of reading about international news in the morning paper, nothing nefarious.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#243

Post by zepto »

robocat wrote: post #242
zepto wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The general rule is that comparing your systems against other countries is worthwhile, and is what most every other country manages to do for breakfast. ” If most every other country managed to do this for breakfast, most every other country would be ahead of even the best parts of the US. The fact that the US and Europe as a whole are roughly comparable proves this simply can’t be correct. “Dismissing other countri…

> the entire message you are delivering here is to attack America with this strawman and claim (now) that almost everyone else is governing better. I am trying to help - you are perceiving that as an attack and you continue to incorrectly try and tell me how I think - an obvious impossibility. > and claim (now) that almost everyone else is governing better. Throughout this thread I talk about looking to countries tha…

“Watching the arc of excuses made by citizens of the US has been a black comedy: it started with excuses about how China managed to control Covid, it moved on to different excuses when some other Asian countries managed low death counts, then the excuses changed again once some first world countries got their shit together. The underlying premise was “USA #1” therefore if another country is doing better then let’s pipe up with a irrelevant excuse meme. The pattern is tragically hilarious.”

Seems like what you mean by ‘trying to help’, is to assert that and that the US problems are the result of excuses and an attitude problem.

Do you seriously think that no Americans are interested in how other countries do things? As people have pointed out elsewhere, one of the two major political parties makes a point of citing other countries as models.

You say you are trying to help, but you haven’t offered any helpful suggestions.

You keep saying other countries are better governed, but somehow you haven’t identified a single thing the US could actually do to govern better.

It’s entirely possible that what looks like ‘better government’ isn’t a feature of a system at all, and just the result of a simpler situation of not having had to face particular challenges.

Without actually saying what the US could do better, you really aren’t making a case for anything.

What we do know, is that you keep saying that other countries are better than the US, and that you firmly believe this.

How is this different from the people who believe that the US is better than other counties? Aren’t you just the mirror image of the thing you are criticizing?

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#244

Post by CyberDildonics »

ashtonkem wrote: post #209
CyberDildonics wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw your prior comment when I responded to it the first time. Repeating yourself more forcefully doesn't explain your thought process. You think journalists have been lying about corruption and minimized consequences for so long that people are unsurprised by corruption AND that in turn caused corruption? Also who is talking about "the capability of the government to do any good"?

I mean, I genuinely don't care which came first. That's why I posted it. I'm not terribly interested in arguing about first causes when I've made it very clear that in my opinion first causes don't matter in this case.

Both of your replies have just been you saying that you're right, you haven't added any new information.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#245

Post by ncmncm »

twblalock wrote: post #212
ncmncm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened last time. Drew Davis was recalled when he refused to pay $80B in enbezzled utility costs, and started an investigation of the embezzling. Arnold had the state just pay the $80B. Somebody got every penny of that $80B.

I don't recall the $80 billion being a major factor in Gray Davis's recall. I remember the rolling blackouts, high power bills, and high car registration fees being more important. Those were having a real impact on voters, and there was a general sense that he was unable to solve those problems. I also remember the campaign to replace him devolving into a total zoo with all kinds of kooks on the ballot.

You wouldn't; they of course didn't say why they were really trying to recall him.

The rolling blackouts were an integral part of the embezzlement scheme; getting people to blame Davis for them was clever marketing. So was the zoo: when people are confused enough, they vote for a familiar name, and there was Arnold.

The prospect of $80 billion, free and clear, buys a lot of clever marketing.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#246

Post by _zg4q »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #194
bennysonething wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't get arrested if you move to japan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51129580 There was a piece on BBC radio 4 about this. Stuck in a cell and not allowed to lean on walls had to sit up right the whole time horrendous. Usa has its problems, it also has a constitution and the first amendment. Sadly here in the UK we do not.

At least there's universal healthcare in the middle of a global pandemic, unfortunately there's a push to remodel it after the U.S. private insurance model, but also a string opposition to that idea.

"Universal Healthcare" is generally pretty terrible. I'm not saying the US system is perfect, it has plenty of flaws but at least you can't be banned from getting services you want [0]. Plus government is already subsidizing the cost of the vaccine, and creating a program for elderly and low income people to get the vaccine for fairly cheap [1].

[0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/17/nhs-provokes-fur...

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2020/11/17/how-mu...

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#247

Post by ashtonkem »

zepto wrote: post #241
ashtonkem wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The need to turn differences in reading and opinion into a no holds barred psychological fight is genuinely toxic. You and I have read the same post differently, and your attempt to villainize me as a gasligther is not something that should be accepted in polite conversation. Knock it off. Furthermore, if you're going to accuse someone of gaslighting, then do everyone the favor of actually paraphrasing their argument…

“The need to turn differences in reading and opinion into a no holds barred psychological fight is genuinely toxic.“ I agree. That’s why I think it’s a bad idea to tell someone that something they are responding to isn’t present. Avoiding bulverism is a good step to avoid bringing things into the psychological realm. Knock it off! I get that you have a different understanding which is reasonable, but that can be expr…

> You read the GP’s comment through the concept of a ‘core’ argument, which excludes some parts of what the GP said as simply examples. I think the parent reasonably doesn’t use that concept, and sees more than one argument being made.

This discussion would have gone much smoother if you'd just gone with this argument rather than jumping straight to gaslighting.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#248

Post by ashtonkem »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #244
ashtonkem wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I genuinely don't care which came first. That's why I posted it. I'm not terribly interested in arguing about first causes when I've made it very clear that in my opinion first causes don't matter in this case.

Both of your replies have just been you saying that you're right, you haven't added any new information.

I literally said "I genuinely don't care". That is not the same as "I'm right", and I'm perplexed on how you got to that conclusion.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#249

Post by trianglem »

Kapura wrote: post #123

It feels like I live in a country where every level of government is unbelievably corrupt, but also completely unfixable. How are you supposed to address the sorts of issues that lose $200,000,000 of state money if the people who try to do so get fired? I don't see a way out of this mess, and it makes me want to move somewhere... better.

There isn’t anything better. Sure maybe the Scandinavian countries are somewhat better but I’d rather kill myself than live in that weather. East Asia has its own host of problems plus you’ll always be an outsider.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#250

Post by refurb »

hnruss wrote: post #207
refurb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re only looking at one side. Regulations can also encourage corruption - if I can’t even open my doors unless I get a permit, well, that’s plenty of incentive for whoever control that permit to ask for something to “sweeten the pie”.

Is that form of corruption a systemic problem here in the U.S.? I don’t think that it is. On the other hand, campaign contributions are common, legal, and involve large sums of money (especially to PACs). Systemic corruption of elected officials, resulting in de-regulation in order to benefit wealthy shareholders at the expense of the public, is more concerning to me than the possibility of low-level officials seekin…

Your logic only makes sense if you equate legal fundraising to back room, illegal corruption.

To me, someone funding raising through a legal, transparent PAC might not be desirable, but it’s far less insidious than backroom dealings that pervert the rule of law.

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