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California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

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Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#211

Post by prewett »

robocat wrote: post #204
cosmodisk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is there is no better. Countries,names and organisations may differ, but it's more or less the same everywhere

> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department fo…

> Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions.

So if you're comparing a government the size of a US state to the US federal government, and saying the states do better, yeah, sure, but it's not a fair comparison. You can find US states that do better than the US as a whole, too. A much better comparison is the EU.

The US is the geographical size that is almost twice the Roman Empire (9 million km^2 for the US, 5 million km^2 for the Roman Empire), with widely varying climates and therefore economies, and a diverse set of cultures. To suggest that the solutions for a Scandinavian country (relatively homogeneous culture and climate, population roughly the size of a major US city) is unhelpful.

It's easy to say "these other people with a completely different history, geography, culture, and population" do it so much better, but it's just not helpful. Let me know hen you figure out how to apply Scandinavia or NZ to New York, the South, Utah, California, rural Iowa, and Alaska, and you can figure out a way to convince everyone it's in their best interests.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#212

Post by twblalock »

ncmncm wrote: post #199
twblalock wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got my signature form to recall the governor printed out, but what is holding me back from mailing it in is the fear that we could end up with someone even worse in charge if the recall succeeds.

It happened last time. Drew Davis was recalled when he refused to pay $80B in enbezzled utility costs, and started an investigation of the embezzling. Arnold had the state just pay the $80B. Somebody got every penny of that $80B.

I don't recall the $80 billion being a major factor in Gray Davis's recall. I remember the rolling blackouts, high power bills, and high car registration fees being more important. Those were having a real impact on voters, and there was a general sense that he was unable to solve those problems.

I also remember the campaign to replace him devolving into a total zoo with all kinds of kooks on the ballot.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#213

Post by robocat »

zepto wrote: post #208
robocat wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department fo…

“I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ” The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US. It seems like the cherry picking is being done by you. It’s completely meaningless to compare it to the US as if it were similar. If you compare the US to Europe as a whole , you’ll find just as many problems, and the compar…

> The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US

A meaningless cliché argument.

Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that?

There are 32 states with smaller populations than NZ. There are 44 states that are smaller in size than NZ.

The Tokyo Major Metropolitan Area has about the same population as the most populous state of California - so what?

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#214

Post by zepto »

robocat wrote: post #213
zepto wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ” The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US. It seems like the cherry picking is being done by you. It’s completely meaningless to compare it to the US as if it were similar. If you compare the US to Europe as a whole , you’ll find just as many problems, and the compar…

> The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US A meaningless cliché argument. Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that? There are 32 states…

“so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that”

If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations?

What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts?

What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#215

Post by [deleted] »

zepto wrote: post #214
robocat wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US A meaningless cliché argument. Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that? There are 32 states…

“so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that” If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations? What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts? What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?

[deleted]

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#216

Post by robocat »

zepto wrote: post #214
robocat wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US A meaningless cliché argument. Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that? There are 32 states…

“so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that” If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations? What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts? What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?

My original point is “The problem is there is no better” is a defeatist attitude: there is a lot better.

Every other country in the world manages to model their own policies by using other countries of smaller or larger size, that have wildly different societies and governance.

Each state government in the United States holds legal and administrative jurisdiction within its bounds, yet somehow US states are special, and other countries have nothing worthwhile copying.

Almost every time someone says that other countries manage to do something better, the same tired canards are brought out in attack, usually with the undercurrent of “USA #1”, therefore any other way of doing things is wrong or inapplicable.

I don’t normally argue the point, because the counter-arguments like yours are so predictable and so spectacularly irrelevant.

You mentioned Covid. Watching the arc of excuses made by citizens of the US has been a black comedy: it started with excuses about how China managed to control Covid, it moved on to different excuses when some other Asian countries managed low death counts, then the excuses changed again once some first world countries got their shit together. The underlying premise was “USA #1” therefore if another country is doing better then let’s pipe up with a irrelevant excuse meme. The pattern is tragically hilarious.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#217

Post by CRConrad »

prewett wrote: post #211
robocat wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department fo…

> Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. So if you're comparing a government the size of a US state to the US federal government, and saying the states do better, yeah, sure, but it's not a fair comparison. You can find US s…

I don't get this constant harping on size whenever it is pointed out how America sucks. “Oooh, it's so hard to govern a country this size!” Why?!? Sure, there's more to govern — but in exactly equal measure, there are also more resources to do it with!

Everybody stop dragging up size as an excuse, please. It's a stupid cop-out.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#218

Post by zepto »

robocat wrote: post #216
zepto wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that” If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations? What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts? What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?

My original point is “The problem is there is no better” is a defeatist attitude: there is a lot better. Every other country in the world manages to model their own policies by using other countries of smaller or larger size, that have wildly different societies and governance. Each state government in the United States holds legal and administrative jurisdiction within its bounds, yet somehow US states are special,…

“The problem is there is no better” is a defeatist attitude: there is a lot better. Not really for a 350m region.

You don’t need to go outside the US to be able to contrast two different regions of 5 million people.

Showing that some administrative groups of 5 million have better outcomes than others does nothing to explain how to run a state of 350m in a better way.

You have offered us nothing of explanatory value, merely a statistically obvious observation.

My “counter argument” is predictable because it’s pointing out a predictable flaw I’m what you are saying. Ignoring it doesn’t make it less true.

If you understand the causes of NZ’s better than average governance, and can also explain why it underperforms some states, then why not offer an explanation?

If you can’t offer explanations, then perhaps that tells us something.

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#219

Post by ashtonkem »

ashkankiani wrote: post #186
Kapura wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, I am blessed with friends who have already made the jump, in many different directions, so I have firsthand testimonies of the pros and cons of moving to a variety of different countries. Japan sounds nice.

Unless you're fluent in reading and speaking Japanese, don't move here. It's a nightmare. Pick a country where you know the language. And consider renouncing your citizenship to avoid taxes if you have the prospect of attaining new citizenship.

Given that there seems to be an Anglo-American suicide pact in place, can I recommend not England?

Re: California Public Utilities Commission fired director who exposed missing $200M

#220

Post by ashtonkem »

prewett wrote: post #211
robocat wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department fo…

> Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. So if you're comparing a government the size of a US state to the US federal government, and saying the states do better, yeah, sure, but it's not a fair comparison. You can find US s…

I think you have missed the point.

GP’s argument wasn’t that the Scandinavian model is better, they were instead forcefully rejecting the idea that everyone is as bad or worse than America. It is very common for liberals to point at Scandinavia as the ideal model, but that is not core at all to their argument.

Furthermore, while you might have a point about the geographic size of the US, as an individual it’s not clear why I should care. Living under corruption sucks, regardless of the root cause. The size of ones nation doesn’t really provide a lot of psychological protection against country specific negative experiences.

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