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The Future of RTS

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Re: The Future of RTS

#191

I felt that Company of Heroes was a nice evolution of the genre and minimized the need for incredibly high APM. For those who have not played Company of Heroes it is more about unit positioning and microing those units effectively. It requires a different set of skills than other RTS games. Unfortunately I have not seen this catch on. Relic, the developers of CoH are working on Age of Empires IV and so I hope they wi…

Yeah. I was pretty disappointed when CoH2 wanted to get on eSport bandwagon and shoveled in a lot of micro heavy features. Suddenly every unit had bunch of manually triggered abilities you had to babysit (because apparently WW2 soldiers are too dumb to throw a grenade on a tank by themselves).

As such, it got significantly less fun for me with the exception of Ardennes Assault campaign.

Re: The Future of RTS

#192
post #189

>> Simply put, most RTS games are exhausting. As someone who has achieved a relatively high level of play in numerous popular RTS games, my best coaching advice for the vast majority of players would be to play more and to play faster. In most instances being able to micro, macro, and multi task is the biggest obstacle keeping players from pushing their play to the next level. Many times, I hear players getting frust…

The thing is, making RTS games that are crazy APM clickathons is something that the studio chose to do. There's no rule that you need to make a strategy game that focuses so much on fast clicking - games like Wargame series, original Company of Heroes, Dawn of War and even Age of Empires II have significantly less of a "mad clicking" requirement and focus more on economic and strategy aspects of the game. It's kinda…

I did play a lot of Dawn of War when it first came out (I also played the sequel a little). I liked it exactly because you could command platoon-level units, rather than well, soldier-level units. That kind of less fine-grained control is also why I totally fell madly in love with Total War. That and the slightly more detailed economy aspect of course (no commerce in Starcraft...).

Re: The Future of RTS

#193
post #188
post #85

Some problems I'd note for any resurgence of the RTS genre: * There hasn't been a huge RTS hit in ages, so large studios aren't going to push large chunks of cash into them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you may disagree with whether large studios should act this way, but that doesn't matter, because the observable fact is they do. * RTS games are still pretty expensive to make well. There hasn't been a breako…

In my opinion Starcraft 2 killed RTSes (just like Dota 2 and LOL killed MOBAs). With multiplayer games people can play the same title forever if it's deep enough. So new games in the same genre have to compete against a game that was made by Blizzard in 2010 and constantly developed ever since. So what happens is - people check out the new game, and either get bored (it's too similar and worse) or get discouraged (it…

Couldn’t you argue the same thing for Facebook as the ultimate social network that will never be dethroned?

Re: The Future of RTS

#194

>> Simply put, most RTS games are exhausting. As someone who has achieved a relatively high level of play in numerous popular RTS games, my best coaching advice for the vast majority of players would be to play more and to play faster. In most instances being able to micro, macro, and multi task is the biggest obstacle keeping players from pushing their play to the next level. Many times, I hear players getting frust…

how to make the next big e-sports RTS hit, instead of a game that many people will want to play The problem is that we want to do both. The competitors to RTSes, games like League of Legends, Fortnite, Rocket League, and Hearthstone, are all (very different) games that are enjoyable to play across the full spectrum of skill levels. RTS games really seem to be split into two categories: indie games that are appealing…

> The competitors to RTSes, games like League of Legends, Fortnite, Rocket League, and Hearthstone... are enjoyable to play across the full spectrum of skill levels.

I'm mostly kidding, but I do think it's worth pointing out that most (if not all) of those games have been accused of being extremely unfriendly to new players and generally being miserable experiences until you acquire a baseline level of knowledge.

I think the more important part of those games you listed is that they're designed around team play (and thus friend groups), with the obvious exception of Hearthstone (which compensates for the burden of knowledge by having a lot of randomness and a VERY forgiving ladder at the low end).

Getting destroyed in League is fun if you're playing with friends; with strangers it usually just results in a lot of angry messages.

> it is a pretty terrible game to play if you just want to unwind after work.

I think this is really the crux of why games that encourage team play will always win out: It's fun to play with friends, win or lose. SC2 tried this a bit, but at least when I used to play it was very clear that the game was completely unbalanced around team play.

Most of these games, if you want to really succeed, are mentally taxing. You have to pay attention to a minimap, you have to constantly be on the lookout for other people, you have to remember exactly what cards they've played so far.

If you can't counterbalance that with at least some socialization and lightheartedness, it's just work.

Re: The Future of RTS

#195
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obstacles to indie RTS games aren't art style/production related. If anything, the top-down or isometric-ish view makes that part relatively straightforward. The requirement for online multiplayer (while dealing with hundreds of units) is the bigger obstacle. Especially if they're working with Unity. Pathfinding (in a way that lets large swarms of units move smoothly through narrow choke points) is a non-trivial…

You could eschew online multiplayer and just make a single player or LAN game. Most RTS games never got any real competitive play anyways because balancing is a very long and costly process. For indies it also matters that this process must be mind-numbingly boring.

I never understood why balancing an RTS is such a difficult problem. Couldn’t you simply reduce each unit to a score that’s a combination of its cost to build, time to build, cost of buildings required to build it, speed, damage, defense, and damage per second, and make sure that all units in a class have roughly equal scores?

Re: The Future of RTS

#196

I clicked just to see what the op would say about warcraft 3 and the very first point is a clear indication of inadequate understanding of the game at elite level of play. Spacing is important and in fact a big part of the game but not in a Starcrafty kind of way. Different maps allow for different tactics around map control based on race and ability to creep and gain map control. Its not about holding a high ground…

Agreed! I think WC3 is massively underappreciated.

After being terrible at it in its heyday in middleschool and hearing about Grubby it was a delight many many years later to discover he streams. Watching his stream fully made me appreciate the depth of strategy in WC3. Not the top player when it comes to micro but he often beats the best with brilliant and constantly varied strategies. One thing he is known for is successfully base trading his way to a win that most would have already considered a loss. That grubby does so well despite his "low" APM I think is a testament to WC3's depth of strategy and balance.

Re: The Future of RTS

#197
post #88

It's sad to me that this author's only view of RTS is as an esport. If that's how it is then I'll be fine if there's never another RTS, and 95% of the public doesn't care about esports either.

I find eSports bad for gaming. People are focusing so much on watching others and being competitive, not caring much in about enjoying the games they play. I see even kids doing it, just sitting back and watching others instead of actually playing the game.

When I go to a field to play football, most people are just having fun, no one is trying to be like a professional. Those people that are extremely competitive end up not wanted around. On video games on the other hand it feels like everyone wanna be a professional of eSports and play competitively, even on games that are not meant to be. It just ruins the experience.

Re: The Future of RTS

#198
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ultimately they all played pretty much the same High level tournaments include civilization drafting before a best of N series of games. Occasionally, one player/team ends up with a civilization match up which gives them a clear advantage (because they successfully predicted their opponent's civilization pick - it the opponent had picked something else the advantage might swing the other way). Occasionally games ar…

So the civs are both not as distinct as sc2 races but also less balanced. Seems justified to me to rate it lower for how well the game adds and handles variety. I say this as someone for whom aoe2 was one of the major games of my childhood and only got into sc2 in college

They're pretty well balanced, just overall, not for each possible matchup.

The difference is that there is more map variation than in SC2, so a civ which is good on water maps is probably going to be below average on land maps. Also team games are a thing at the highest level, so some civs fare better in that context than 1 Vs 1.

Re: The Future of RTS

#199
This article is biased towards Blizzard-style RTS. Not a single C&C game mentioned. Not even RA2 and C&C:Generals, which had very healthy multiplayer scenes. Blizzard RTS games are extremely conservative by design, how are things supposed to get better if you're so conservative?

I think a fundamental problem is control method. In Blizzard RTS, you just must click fast. Lack of automation makes it worse. The interface pioneered by the first C&C game is suitable for commanding small squads. You draw a rectangle to select units and point them at a SINGLE target. There is no way to order snipers to only target infantry and bazookas to handle tanks. No way to tell infantry to keep distance so tanks don't run them over. You only have the primitive X key, which makes selected units move 1 square in a random direction. Limited ways to select multiple units. In most RTS games you can only select pre-configured squads or units of the same type. No way to quickly select only wounded units or only units close to enemy. Basically you can do everything you want but you have to click fast enough. That's like an elaborate version of "Applause for Xi Jinping", the game where you need to click as many times as you can over 9 seconds. Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander had some interface innovations, but it hasn't caught on. In general, I think RTS games should use many, many more keyboard commands and I don't mean just build unit and spell hotkeys. There is an over-reliance on mouse. Mouse scales very poorly with conflict size.

RTS games still haven't managed to implement a useful formation system. In Blizzard RTS, "melee units in front, shooters behind" is called a fine formation. Developers don't give players a formation system to deal with splash damage, they artificially limit impact area. There are very few flanking maneuvers.

Another sign this essay is biased for Blizzard games is no mention of scouting and information gathering. I suppose because it can't be further improved? In Blizzard RTS games, scouting is very rudimentary and you typically send a unit once in a while to enemy base to see what structures he has available. Then you call it a day. Information gathering is an extremely important part of warfare and it's stagnant in Blizzard RTS games. Sometimes you have a spell like Farsight or Satellite scan, which only reveals a small area for a very short time. There are no tools to survey the area between bases to give you an idea where enemies might be. Without proper scouting as a layer of contest, the game can become a match of rock, paper, scissors.

Incentives to spread your force. In this area, SC2 is actually a regression. A force is typically called a "ball", and you run one ball into another ball. There are no good ways to deal a lot of damage with a smaller force, so most players stick to a huge ball. There are no incentives to attack in 2 areas at once. By dividing your force you usually put yourself at a disadvantage.

Incentives to keep some money or units in reserve. There are none. It is usually considered bad play to have any money sitting in the bank - you haven't optimized your build order. You're doing fine if all your factories are producing at full capacity.

Starcraft players like to bring up Chess because they have an inferiority complex, but a better comparison might be playing guitar. To play both you need to practice, practice, practice until you can perform very well. You need to know what to do in advance. If enemy does something strange, you better know the counter already. It's not a game for thinking much.

In short, I think the essay author should play more non-Blizzard games to see how things can be done differently. Settlers, Northgard, Z, Planetary Annihilation, Total War series, Homeworld...

Re: The Future of RTS

#200
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion Starcraft 2 killed RTSes (just like Dota 2 and LOL killed MOBAs). With multiplayer games people can play the same title forever if it's deep enough. So new games in the same genre have to compete against a game that was made by Blizzard in 2010 and constantly developed ever since. So what happens is - people check out the new game, and either get bored (it's too similar and worse) or get discouraged (it…

Couldn’t you argue the same thing for Facebook as the ultimate social network that will never be dethroned?

Social networks are supposedly different in that the _new_ users (i.e. teenagers) are actively trying to _not_ share a platform with previous users (i.e. parents and people older than 25 in general)
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