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Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

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Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#71

Post by chrisseaton »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #70

Can we step back and marvel at the absurdity that one of the most powerful CPUs ever created was for a phone?

But these devices aren’t ‘phones’ any more are they? That’s disingenuous.

They’re hugely powerful general purpose computing devices - many people’s primary computing device if you go outside the tech bubble. They do compute intensive tasks like photo manipulation, on-line video editing, grading, and compression, they do face detection, depth estimation, etc etc.

I don’t know why people still say ‘wow all this for a telephone’ like all it does is make analog phone calls.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#72

Post by vnorilo »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #70

Can we step back and marvel at the absurdity that one of the most powerful CPUs ever created was for a phone?

From a device class where the newly all-important perf per watt was always the north star, in a market with the largest chip volume, by a company with ample margins and mountains of cash? Does not seem all that absurd :)

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#73

Post by joakleaf »

I wonder what they'll do for "M1X" and pro-machines?

Seems like heat isn't an issue, so can they increase the clock-speed of the M1?

And will they create a larger die with 2xGPU and 2xCPUs, or will they "stitch" multiple M1 dies together on one package to have a higher yield and reduce supply chain concerns?

An M1X with 2xGPU will bring it to Radeon 5500M level which is what I have in my current 16", but still not quite to Nvidia 1080 level.

So they'll definitely need a more powerful GPU for the pro-users. I wonder if they can make a 4xGPU, or if the yield will become poor as the die size increases. Maybe they'll have to do a discrete GPU, but that doesn't seem to match their current trajectory.

And then there have been "leaks" (rumors, really) about an 32xcore M1-family CPU, but I imagine the yield of such a beast would be horrible, with all the other SOC components on the same die. Especially, if they put a 32xcore GPU on the same die.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#75

Post by ngcc_hk »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #48
wtallis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the right camera modifications, you don't have to remove any layers from a chip to discern the core count: https://www.flickr.com/photos/130561288@N04/48258310027/ That's an IR photograph taken with a Sony APS-C camera that the IR-blocking filter has been removed from. That's enough to make out the cores and L3 cache slices. (The rest of Fritzchens Fritz's flickr uploads are worth checking out too, especially th…

That’s cool! How would the major companies reverse engineer these chips?

Why not underestimate the engineering effort, could the problem is higher up in the chain (software api like Apple os) and lower (the equipment to produce the chip). Would the IP that important?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#76

Post by Synaesthesia »

bullen wrote: post #68
deaddodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a SoC, not a CPU. The majority of the non-annotated is glue logic, I/O, etc.

That's alot of glue! I would say ~50%! What is the system cache? nm, see question below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25547796

It has a lot of roles. You have memory controllers, i/o controllers. Not sure if the SSD controllers is also part of it. Then the dedicated video encode/decode the image processing the neural engine. There's a lot of features.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#77

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #70

Can we step back and marvel at the absurdity that one of the most powerful CPUs ever created was for a phone?

But these devices aren’t ‘phones’ any more are they? That’s disingenuous. They’re hugely powerful general purpose computing devices - many people’s primary computing device if you go outside the tech bubble. They do compute intensive tasks like photo manipulation, on-line video editing, grading, and compression, they do face detection, depth estimation, etc etc. I don’t know why people still say ‘wow all this for a t…

Because it fits in your hand and runs on a battery and is called a phone.

iPhone

As an aside, I was wondering what things does the iPhone 12 do that can even begin to tax all this horespower?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#78

Post by manderley »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #77
chrisseaton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But these devices aren’t ‘phones’ any more are they? That’s disingenuous. They’re hugely powerful general purpose computing devices - many people’s primary computing device if you go outside the tech bubble. They do compute intensive tasks like photo manipulation, on-line video editing, grading, and compression, they do face detection, depth estimation, etc etc. I don’t know why people still say ‘wow all this for a t…

Because it fits in your hand and runs on a battery and is called a phone. iPhone As an aside, I was wondering what things does the iPhone 12 do that can even begin to tax all this horespower?

I assume there are some games that can utilize the power.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#79

Post by dismalpedigree »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #48
wtallis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the right camera modifications, you don't have to remove any layers from a chip to discern the core count: https://www.flickr.com/photos/130561288@N04/48258310027/ That's an IR photograph taken with a Sony APS-C camera that the IR-blocking filter has been removed from. That's enough to make out the cores and L3 cache slices. (The rest of Fritzchens Fritz's flickr uploads are worth checking out too, especially th…

That’s cool! How would the major companies reverse engineer these chips?

TechInsights employee here.

The chip design and fabrication firms have their own internal RE divisions mostly to QA their own chips. They do competitive RE, but its often less expensive for them to get a subscription to TechInsights. Economies of scale and all that.

In terms of how its done, its very proprietary. I can tell you it involves clean rooms, ion beams, electron microscopes, chemistry, and bleeding edge software.

If you want to come work for us (its enjoyable, you should :) ) check out our careers page. We are hiring like crazy in many positions.

https://www.techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/car...

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Die-Shots

#80

Post by chrisseaton »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #77
chrisseaton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But these devices aren’t ‘phones’ any more are they? That’s disingenuous. They’re hugely powerful general purpose computing devices - many people’s primary computing device if you go outside the tech bubble. They do compute intensive tasks like photo manipulation, on-line video editing, grading, and compression, they do face detection, depth estimation, etc etc. I don’t know why people still say ‘wow all this for a t…

Because it fits in your hand and runs on a battery and is called a phone. iPhone As an aside, I was wondering what things does the iPhone 12 do that can even begin to tax all this horespower?

Right - 'one of the most powerful CPUs ever created was for a phone' sounds funny, so to get your head around it think instead 'one of the most powerful CPUs ever created was for a miniaturised 4k on-line editing suite and live broadcast system' and it doesn't sound so absurd anymore does it?
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