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The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

mcgill.ca

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#61

In my experience Dunning-Kruger 100% is there but in the following form: "knowledgeable people doubt, and less people know they are more confident." It is even amazing sometimes, how confidently people without any knowledge talk and give opinion about subjects that need high level of knowledge, just to even begin to ponder about it. And again, it can be my bias.

My rationalization about that effect was around the idea that the deeper is your knowledge on a topic, the more aware you become of how much is left to know. Turning what you don't know that you don't know into something that you know that you don't know.

Not being aware of things that you don't know gives you confidence.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#62
post #14

Does this article actually contains explanation of what was wrong with the original study? Maybe I don't know how to read with understanding, but to me this article makes only two points: 1. The effect was about all people, not just dumb people. 2. The same graph can be obtained "by random". Point 1. makes sense, but 2. is left unexplained. There is a lot of words, but no content. Almost as if GPT-3 was writing it :)…

As I understand it, the original study suggested a bias, which causes us to assume that our abilities are closer to the mean distribution than they actually are. The example about the language test misses out on this entirely.

(Regarding that example, a person may even withstand the confrontation with the test score, like, "I guess, even a native speaker doesn't get more than 65% on average", or, "99% is surely not that unusual, everybody with a decent understanding should get a score like this".)

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#65
This code seems to somewhat re-create effect, except noise is symmetric at both sides (also true of the xkcd-style plot in this article, actually). Plot: https://imgur.com/a/dGZyylf

It seems a crucial piece of context is that there is some correlation between perceived and actual performance. There also is a global optimistic bias, apparently across experiments people perceive their rank is in the 66th percentile, so this universal effect leaves more room for error on the under-performing people while the highly-performing people are going to end up closer to that 66th percentile tautologically, and bounded above by smaller amount of space.

  import random
  import numpy as np

  np.random.seed(seed=12345)

  from scipy.linalg import eigh, cholesky
  from scipy.stats import norm
  from matplotlib import pyplot as plt

  #Draw correlated random variables
  #Ref here: https://scipy-cookbook.readthedocs.io/items/CorrelatedRandomSamples.html

  num_samples = 125 * 4                 #
  x = norm.rvs(size=(2, num_samples)) # uncorrelated random normal variables

  expected_correlation = np.array([[1.0, 0.19], [0.19, 1.0]])
  c = cholesky(expected_correlation, lower=True) #there's a slight correlation of R = 0.19 between actual and perceived scores (according to Ackerman, 2002)

  trans_x = np.dot(c, x)

  #perceived / actual readings with R=0.19
  perceived = trans_x[0, :]
  actual = trans_x[1, :]

  #Sort both variables by actual scores.
  sort_by_actual = sorted(range(num_samples), key = lambda idx: actual[idx])

  perceived_by_actual = [perceived[i] for i in sort_by_actual]
  actual_by_actual = [actual[i] for i in sort_by_actual]

  quartile_indices = [i * (num_samples // 4) for i in range(5)] #note: depends on divisiblity by four

  x_coords = [xx // 2 for xx in quartile_indices[1:]] #mid-points just for plotting
  perceived_means = [np.mean(perceived_by_actual[start:end]) for (start, end) in zip(quartile_indices[:-1], quartile_indices[1:])]
  actual_means = [np.mean(actual_by_actual[start:end]) for (start, end) in zip(quartile_indices[:-1], quartile_indices[1:])]

  #Plot
  fig = plt.figure()

  ax1 = fig.add_subplot(111)
  plt.title("Dunning-Kruger")

  ax1.scatter(x_coords, perceived_means, marker="s", label="perceived")
  ax1.scatter(x_coords, actual_means, marker="o", label="true")
  ax1.legend()

  plt.show()

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#66
post #26

The article doesn't explain what is actually going on to produce the second chart, but here is a guess. Assume people have a true ability x , an estimated ability y which is x + some unbiased noise, and a test score z which is also x + some unbiased noise. If you take a sample and collect the lowest quartile of test scores z , then the average of the estimated abilities y in that group is higher than z because the y…

However, from my reading of the article they were asked to estimate their performance after they had already taken the test, not their inherent ability.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#67
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I know who fall into this category construct an elaborate world view where they are the constant victim of all the idiots and jerks of the world. Everything that goes wrong is someone else’s fault, not their own ignorance and bad choices.

You might find this study interesting: "Researchers identify a new personality construct that describes the tendency to see oneself as a victim" https://www.psypost.org/2020/12/researchers-identify-a-new-p...

I think it's generally understood that people have varying degrees of self-agency. If you're the sort who doesn't believe in your own agency, that everything happens to you rather than you being largely in control, then when life hands you lemons you will consider yourself a victim.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#68
post #7

I can't go a week without seeing people mention Dunning-Kruger on Reddit. It's become such a pop-cultural zeitgeist term that it's lost any ties to the original study. It's frequently abused as a derogatory adjective to describe people while claiming the superior argument, often without providing evidence. I don't know what to do about it, but its use by lay people bothers me. It's ironically Dunning-Kruger.

I can't help but notice that your comment ironically continues the recursion chain, and that mine now does as well.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#69
post #48

Not sure if the Dunning-Kruger effect can be applied to everything (such as: humour, grammar, etc., as listed in the article), but I think pretty much everyone who has played any kind of video game (Dota, LoL, Star Craft, CS:GO, etc.) in a competitive "try-hard" environment for long enough will assure you that the Dunning-Krueger effect is indeed real. "It's not my fault for losing this; I am clearly better than the…

While I've certainly seen players say those things, and agree that increasing humility is a good corrective to that character flaw, that kind of public bragging isn't indicative of their self-evaluation, and I haven't seen that expert players necessarily stop that behavior or demonstrate that humility was the key to their skill mastery.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real

#70
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So half of reddit?

Maybe the HN delusions of grandeur effect is real after all (...I like both, merry Christmas)

I'm not saying reddit doesnt have any uses. But /r/popular is not what it once was. Like imagine if HN was covered in memes and low quality content.
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