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Trading Time for Money

nicolasbouliane.com

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Re: Trading Time for Money

#121

Post by cryptica »

keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>> Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value

The most rewarding human experiences I've felt in my life so far have had financial value attached... In fact, they usually involve me receiving some kind of money. Receiving money is the most valuable human experience, especially if I get it for free (the less work I do, the better). Brings tears of joy to my eyes.

The worst human experiences are related to spending money. Especially on overpriced depreciating assets and consumables. The worst is giving money to other people for free. Nothing makes me feel emptier.

Also, when central banks print units of my hard-earned currency and give it for free to other people (without my consent), that infuriates me. For me, it's the human experiential equivalent of getting raped on a daily basis and everyone else cheering on the perpetrator.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#122

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

robocat wrote: post #98
SubuSS wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we are going by numbers, how many talented artists are indeed there? Of this how many are talented enough to be both artists and stock brokers AND are overwhelmed by stock broking so much that they give up on their Picasso like talents? 0.0001% of the general pop? May be if we count every one with massive world class but oppressed talents, will they account for 0.1% of the world pop? As much as it would liberate t…

> it would only allow the rest 99.9% to focus their time into consumption Here is an article in agreement with that point, from a different POV though: https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/i-used-to-argue-for-ubi-then-... “[UBI] merely serves as a way to keep the wealthiest people (and their loyal vassals, the software developers) entrenched at the very top of the economic operating system.”. Ideally I think a UBI appears…

One may believe that many bad things in society stem from our instinctive fear of loosing out on valuable resources for our survival.

F.ex I think it’s pretty commonly agreed that a safe environment, where failure is not fatal, may promote creativity and innovation better than an environment where failure gets you ousted.

Some would even argue that the same fear is a powerful force in shaping less desirable behavior. F.ex when used as a tool for manipulation.

UBI, some argue, may address a large source of such fears.

Especially in a highly creative group, such as I imagine the hn-audience to be, this may be a strongly felt belief. I think it’s quite natural that it’s a promise that would trigger a bit of zealotry in that group.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#123

Post by potatoman22 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #103
nicbou wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wouldn’t such knowledge spread quickly and become common knowledge How to lose weight is open knowledge, but that doesn't make it easier, doubly so if you are also fighting other battles. Sometimes there is a solution, but it's just not attainable for everyone. > are there any real life hacks that are not obvious that result in significant quality of life improvements? I didn't want to make this post about my own l…

How do you cover medical when freelancing? Do you have a family to support?

Europe

Re: Trading Time for Money

#124

Post by jpindar »

tasuki wrote: post #120
CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons to use housing as a financial source for UBI. An LVT-like approach could capture the full market value of housing (land really) and tunnel it back into the economy as a public dividend, an UBI. It would be a bit different from the current inheritance based land value extraction since it would go to everyone instead of the lucky owners. I think it could be positive change though.

What is LVT?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

Re: Trading Time for Money

#125

Post by GordonS »

robocat wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

I know a sample of people on “basic income”: they are on unemployment benefits (or similar.) I am unsure I see any correlation with higher output of culture, art, religion etcetera from those on benefits, even though they may have under-the-table income for necessary tools and consumables. They often do spend more time on family and friends though.

I don't see how that's a valid comparison - unemployment benefits are barely enough to survive on, and those in receipt are both stigmatised by society and pressured by the government to find a job ASAP.

Basic income is about giving everyone a "no-catches" income that's enough to actually live on, rather than merely survive on.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#126

Post by okthenletssee »

aynyc wrote: post #79
okthenletssee wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rewarding experience has zero financial value? I think you are very wrong about money.

For me, things such as raising my kids, cooking, fishing, climbing, skiing, reading, drawing terribly, and coding, etc give me rewarding experience and zero financial value. I’m not gifted in any of them, so won’t make money off them other than coding.

Even simpler example: you don't get paid for eating food. Does that imply food has no value?

Re: Trading Time for Money

#127

Post by aynyc »

okthenletssee wrote: post #126
aynyc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, things such as raising my kids, cooking, fishing, climbing, skiing, reading, drawing terribly, and coding, etc give me rewarding experience and zero financial value. I’m not gifted in any of them, so won’t make money off them other than coding.

Even simpler example: you don't get paid for eating food. Does that imply food has no value?

That’s a bad argument because you need to eat to survive, unless you don’t value human lives. So, yes, eating food has value.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#128

Post by UncleMeat »

robocat wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

I know a sample of people on “basic income”: they are on unemployment benefits (or similar.) I am unsure I see any correlation with higher output of culture, art, religion etcetera from those on benefits, even though they may have under-the-table income for necessary tools and consumables. They often do spend more time on family and friends though.

> they are on unemployment benefits (or similar.)

Unemployment runs out in a few months and requires you to be actively looking for work. It isn't a stable position where you'd be able to be creative.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#129

Post by mejutoco »

GordonS wrote: post #125
robocat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a sample of people on “basic income”: they are on unemployment benefits (or similar.) I am unsure I see any correlation with higher output of culture, art, religion etcetera from those on benefits, even though they may have under-the-table income for necessary tools and consumables. They often do spend more time on family and friends though.

I don't see how that's a valid comparison - unemployment benefits are barely enough to survive on, and those in receipt are both stigmatised by society and pressured by the government to find a job ASAP. Basic income is about giving everyone a "no-catches" income that's enough to actually live on, rather than merely survive on.

I find it an insightful comparison. Probably the closest to UBI today.

How do we know receiving UBI will not be stigmatized? It can also vary from place to place (it is cultural).

At least in one country I know unemployment is 60% of your previous salary. This could be enough to survive or to live a very comfortable life, depending on your income.

I agree with you, though, with unemployment benefits being conditional on finding a job, plus the limited time they can be provided in full.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#130

Post by DougN7 »

tt433 wrote: post #71
nicbou wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely doubt that basic income will make us all Victorian-era gentleman scientists and patrons of the arts. I agree with the premise that culture comes from leisure, but realistically, if you give everyone a fixed amount of money, won't the cost of things just rise accordingly? Instead of giving people free money, wouldn't it make more sense to heavily subsidise the basics? Is there any indication that UBI would…

Not who you are replying to that's a bit of a strawman: he never said anything about Victorian era gentlemen. The book he mentioned doesn't either, at least in the first few pages. Why do you start talking about that? Usually when other people mis-state what I say, I get pretty angry.

I think he meant that we’ll not see a huge amount of increased art and beauty. Instead, and I think, we’ll see more consuming of entertainment (video games and youtube).
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