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Poll: Do you support software patents?

news.ycombinator.com

211–220 of 319 posts

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#211
post #180

I think the problem here stems from the fact that people talk as if "software" were one homogenous entity. But as we all know - it isn't. Some software is trivial and some isn't. Some represents a trifling investment and some a huge investment of time and dollars. Some is very easy to copy and some much harder. It is only when we start thinking about such categories that we can make real progress thinking about where…

In general, software is EITHER trivial to copy OR the problem is non-trivial. I would be surprised to hear of any patents covering something that falls into both categories.

I'm sorry but I truly don't understand the relevance to my argument.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a native English speaker and I don't generally understand patent texts. In fact, I've filed quite a few patents and have always been amazed that I give something readable to a lawyer to write up and they turn it into something that I can't understand any more. The idea that a patent is the medium through which an author shares their invention with the world is rather perverse. So I agree; coding around patents is…

You have to understand, though, that legalese isn't English. It may look like English, and even work like English in ways, but its not English. Saying that legalese and English ought to be equivalent because they share words and syntax is like saying C++ and Java ought to be equivalent because they share keywords and syntax.

This is presently true, but shouldn't it be possible to define a legalese that can be parsed as English as well?

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#213
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how poorly the USPTO has performed thus far, it seems impossible that this could be correctly implemented. Better to err on the side of openness, and abolish them altogether.

It's obvious that there are enormous swathes of innovation in the IT world that either happened or would have happened without patents. Amazon would probably not have thought twice about developing one-click checkout if it hadn't been patentable and it seems perfectly plausible that RIM got the idea for the BlackBerry independently of that troll that sued them. But there are also some pretty deep stuff that seems les…

Yes, the "invent a cool codec / protocol, live on the royalties" business model would be difficult without patents.

However, there are a lot of very smart people who invent formats and don't patent them. For instance the JPEG format is clever in a very similar way to the MP3 format. In this instance the format was created by companies with an interest in a great format for their devices - cameras for example.

MP3 (well, a lossy music codec of some kind) could have been created by a similar group trying to make music players interoperable. It might have even been created by open-source advocates. Think Ogg-Vorbis, for instance.

I don't think that we'd live in a world with less cool formats if patents were abolished (yay!). If a format is required to solve a problem, it will be created. Open protocols without patents should be encouraged.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#215
http://www.betanews.com/joewilco... I would recommend this piece for those who wish to see the problems that a small innovative company can have even with patent protection. Without such protection they would have been left with nothing - copied wilfully by Microsoft and competitively dominated, all their investments down the rain. At least this way they prevailed in the courts and will have some recompense for the damage done to their innovative business.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If google really has a patent on that home page, I'd suspect it is a design patent, which is an entirely different kind of beast. It's more like trademark rights.

I don't know the differences but here is the Patent http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sec...

The patent number starting with a D indicates a design patent.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#217
post #58

At risk of taking an unpopular devils-advocate position: I think that the principle of patents is okay. Invest time and money developing an idea, with a guarantee of exclusivity on executing on that idea in the marketplace for a period of time. It encourages a level of risk taking for "getting there first". Software patents aren't any different in many respects because somebody has to go through the time and effort t…

Should they own this idea for the next decade or so? Probably not, but how about the next 12-24 months? At least long enough so that they get a head start against competitors who didn't get there first.

This is probably about as long as it would take for a competitor to write the necessary code and do the necessary testing anyway, so it seems that the reward of being first to market with good code is enough compensation for the risk involved.

If we really want to fight software patents of obvious ideas, or permutations of obvious ideas, perhaps somebody should write a tool that simply combine every obvious idea in software into some greater system, then documents it all thus creating prior art that stops all of these so called bad patents...and then patent the "prior art permuter". In other words, if the ideas are obvious, a piece of software that does this should be buildable. I call this the "obviousness of software patents theorem".

I was thinking about a similar system, wherein hardware and software components are treated like building blocks. You throw some (or all) known blocks into a bag, and randomly draw n blocks and come up with a way they can be used together. You then start applying random domains to the same building blocks (e.g. security, gaming, manufacturing, automobiles) to prove that moving an existing invention to a new domain should be obvious.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#218
post #7

I see no reason why an invention should be unpatentable simply because it involves software. That said, it's obvious that the current system is broken; there are many patents which do not seem to do anything new, and simultaneously the cost of applying for patents deters the group for whom they are most important -- small innovators who are unable to commercialize their inventions. The system needs to be fixed, not t…

>"I see no reason why an invention should be unpatentable simply because it involves software." Are you a software developer? Do you understand that often times, there is only a few logical ways of doing something?

cperciva is the creator of the Tarsnap backup service. So yes, he is very much a software developer. For future reference since you're new here, I suggest clicking on the username above a post to investigate a person's identity.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#219
post #63

This is one of those issues that I feel is more a member of tribal affiliation than anything substantive. It's like flag burning for us Republicans: if I were to rank order my political objectives, "prevent flag burning" would be somewhere in the x0,000s, but the tribe cares about this a lot for philosophical reasons (which I'm broadly speaking on board with) and as a result uses it as a signaling mechanism. Software…

Your discussion of "Tribe Signalling" is interesting. It reminds me of all the stuff that Desmond Morris was talking about in "the Human Animal" (and more recently http://www.exactitudes.com/ ). By wearing certain clothes you're sending a signal to others about political POV, likes dislikes, interests etc... It helps you find other like minded individuals. Maybe you're right that being against software patents is gen…

Predictability of hackers' opposition to software patents doesn't render that opposition inconsequential or irrelevant (unlike a vampire fan's opinion of vampires).

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that the second case is often the norm, I do have one counter-example -- I used to work for Riverbed Technology, a 9 year old company which does WAN optimization and competes against Cisco and Bluecoat, among others. Riverbed is (or was?) generally regarded as the tech leader in the market and its head start is based on a patented compression scheme. There's no question that the patent is a big part of…

....and I would say that if Riverbed didn't provide the equivalent support (lol) as Cisco or didn't have the complete integration solutions that Cisco offers, then Cisco SHOULD win out. If you innovate and you're actually better, then you should win. If not, you should go out of business. Isn't this what "free market" is all about? You can't have both.

...and that's why I'm a bit of a socialist ;) Textbook free market theories make a lot of idealistic assumptions that just aren't true in the real world. The best product doesn't always win, particularly when your competitor sees easier routes to gaining an advantage than the slow, expensive work of improving its own product via investment in its own R&D.
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