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The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

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Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#261

Post by gamblor956 »

FireBeyond wrote: post #258
gamblor956 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you want to be technical about the history of hardware and software platforms in Hollywood, it was Atari and Silicon Graphics until the mid-1990s, when most studios switched to a combination of Windows/nix for their needs. Apple was briefly in consideration for DAWs/audio work in the late 80s/early 90s, until Windows DAWs started hitting the market in force. Today, most Hollywood composers use Cubase, which…

> Cubase, which was definitely Windows-first The Atari ST Cubase 1.0 would like to dispute this. I remember sulking because it wasn't available for my Amiga.

Nothing to dispute. Cubase was also available for the Atari because Atari was still the big platform for audio at the time. But it was programmed on Windows, for Windows, and the next version of Cubase (the famous one, which introduced VSTs) dropped support for Atari altogether.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#262

Post by p0nce »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #175

20 years ago, the audio software industry could have decided to support Linux. Some notable players in the industry tried to convince others to do this (e.g. Waves). It didn't work. Plugin makers, DAW makers all refused to go down that path, despite the possibility of liberating their highly complex, deeply technical products from the whims of Redmond and Cupertino. At that time, Linux already had better latency than…

As a plugin vendor supporting Linux: I think the problem might not be technical but is instead all about the UX. Regardless, it's been great supporting Linux as it appear 5% to 20% of our userbase are now Linux users (macOS 30%).

On Windows or macOS a dictatorship constrain the Audio API to be X and the Graphics API to be Y. On Linux, as a user I can choose ALSA, JACK, PulseAudio and while I'm sure there is a better option, why is the user asked to make this choice in the first place? Just choose "the best" for the user.

So Linux software usually doesn't hide stuff to users (liberty?) and this quickly translate to a worse beginner/intermediate experience, having too many choices in audio software is usually something to combat.

And Ardour is the perfect example of this: upon opening it asks several questions to the user in a pop-up, while virtually all other DAWs will reopen the last session. There is a significant divide in terms of UX, and I see a bit of this everywhere I go when booting under Linux.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#263

Post by ogre_codes »

dingaling wrote: post #73
marcan_42 wrote: post #43

They're going to have to wait until the synth industry gets their act together and ports to Apple Silicon though. The DAW/music ecosystem is notoriously bad at these kinds of transitions. Due to how VSTs work, if any of your plug-ins are not ARM compatible, you have to run the whole plug-in host and all plug-ins under Rosetta, with the performance drop and stability compromises that that entails. And a lot of plug-in…

> They're going to have to wait until the synth industry gets their act together and ports to Apple Silicon though. Why is it their responsibility? Apple has literally billions in the bank, they should be running an incentive scheme if they want more native ports. This reminds me of people complaining that Docker doesn't run on Apple ARM yet. Why should it? Apple are the ones that changed the architecture.

This whole line of argument is just weird.

> Why is it their responsibility? Apple has literally billions in the bank, they should be running an incentive scheme if they want more native ports.

Because they want to sell software and/ or hardware.

> This reminds me of people complaining that Docker doesn't run on Apple ARM yet. Why should it? Apple are the ones that changed the architecture.

Docker is getting migrated for the same reason it was originally ported to MacOS. Because the developers either run Macs or work for companies that support people who run Macs. It's the same reason any software is getting ported.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#264

Post by ogre_codes »

bluedino wrote: post #82
Sholmesy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's naive to think that Apple needs Docker more than Docker needs Apple. If Docker didn't support Apple devices going forward, they would lose a significant amount of users. If Apple doesn't support docker going forward, they lose a tiny percentage point. That being said, its mutually beneficial, so Apple should be putting their best effort to making the transition smooth (which I think, at least from an outsiders p…

Apple should care more about this - web developers are a huge part of their brand

> Apple should care more about this - web developers are a huge part of their brand

They demoed Docker on stage at WWDC. They've donated equipment to Docker. Apple built a significantly better virtualization framework for Big Sur/ Apple Silicon.

What makes you think they don't care about it?

This transition is in baby steps right now. It takes time to migrate software.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#265

Post by ogre_codes »

fartcannon wrote: post #140
Sholmesy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's naive to think that Apple needs Docker more than Docker needs Apple. If Docker didn't support Apple devices going forward, they would lose a significant amount of users. If Apple doesn't support docker going forward, they lose a tiny percentage point. That being said, its mutually beneficial, so Apple should be putting their best effort to making the transition smooth (which I think, at least from an outsiders p…

I dream that at some point, everyone will get their heads out of their asses and abandon this abusive relationship.

It's a tool not a religion.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#266

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

p0nce wrote: post #262
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #175

20 years ago, the audio software industry could have decided to support Linux. Some notable players in the industry tried to convince others to do this (e.g. Waves). It didn't work. Plugin makers, DAW makers all refused to go down that path, despite the possibility of liberating their highly complex, deeply technical products from the whims of Redmond and Cupertino. At that time, Linux already had better latency than…

As a plugin vendor supporting Linux: I think the problem might not be technical but is instead all about the UX. Regardless, it's been great supporting Linux as it appear 5% to 20% of our userbase are now Linux users (macOS 30%). On Windows or macOS a dictatorship constrain the Audio API to be X and the Graphics API to be Y. On Linux, as a user I can choose ALSA, JACK, PulseAudio and while I'm sure there is a better…

Thanks for the interesting response. Glad to hear you're supporting Linux with your plugins!

There is no way for a DAW to choose "what is best" for the user. On Windows the same range of choices exists whether or not any particular DAW offers it to them. ASIO? WASAPI? WaveRT? MME? There's a case to be made for each, depending on circumstances. Only macOS really gets this right. The user can also select "auto-start" for the audio/MIDI I/O backend, which will cause them to no longer be asked which to use each time. This is a reasonable choice if they always use the same computer with the same audio interface. It's not so great if those things change quite a bit.

You're absolutely right that the GUI situation is a mess though. There is no standard graphics API on Linux beside X Window, which is totally unsuitable for direct use in any modern development effort. The desktop toolkits (Qt and GTK etc.) are unsuitable because they cannot be easily statically linked into your plugin, which can then lead to version clashes with whatever the host might use (e.g. your plugin uses QtN, the host uses QtM). There is no good solution to this: we always advise plugin authors to avoid desktop toolkits, and if possible use small standalone statically-linkable GUI toolkits designed for the purpose (PUGL, RobTk and a few others). Alas, even JUCE by default tries to link in some version of Qt (it can be turned off, and should be).

On restarting Ardour, it gives the user the choice of a new session or selecting from a list of recent sessions. I've never heard of anyone suggesting that the correct behavior is "open the last session" and this would differ from the behavior of numerous other creatives applications too. If you start up Inkscape or GIMP (or its derivatives) they will not open the most recent file/project automatically.

> having too many choices in audio software is usually something to combat.

Be sure you let the Reaper devs know this :))

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#267

Post by blymd »

wpietri wrote: post #166
arnon wrote: post #107

This is a very badly written article and I'm not sure why it has so many comments and points. There is no real content. No real impact is mentioned. It says they used Mac Minis which they had to reduce the sound quality to use. OK. "Apple Silicon changes everything for Broadway electronic music designers. The new M1 Mac mini is capable of running high-end sample libraries and virtual instruments in a stable manner".…

It's not an article. It's a personal blog post. The author is conveying personal experience and thinking. It is perfectly well written for that. I found it interesting and informative about a part of the world I don't have experience in. If you don't like it, that's fine. Not everything has to be for you.

Thank you, I'm not sure why some people find the need to be hostile. It was basically some personal thoughts that I decided to share online. Didn't feel like writing 3,000 words on it and definitely never expected to see it shared on HN. Anyway, the post is completely accurate (whether people believe it or not) as I work in the industry.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#268

Post by blymd »

S_A_P wrote: post #260
arnon wrote: post #107

This is a very badly written article and I'm not sure why it has so many comments and points. There is no real content. No real impact is mentioned. It says they used Mac Minis which they had to reduce the sound quality to use. OK. "Apple Silicon changes everything for Broadway electronic music designers. The new M1 Mac mini is capable of running high-end sample libraries and virtual instruments in a stable manner".…

Agreed. I outlined my thoughts in a more detailed post but I dont see how M1 changes the game for anyone using Orchestral libraries. SSDs and disk streaming large sample sets multihundred note polyphony has been a thing for 20 years.

Designing music systems for Broadway isn't only about playing back orchestral libraries. We have to factor in acceptable latency for the player, as well as balance DSP effects as needed for each show. I promise you have no idea what goes into it unless you happen to be one of the five or so people that do this sort of stuff in NYC.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#269

Post by blymd »

nvrGiveUp wrote: post #94
archi42 wrote: post #77

I'm puzzled why there is such a strong dependency on Mac? I mean, the M1 looks pretty nice; but if the author is budget constrained AND the hardware is too slow, wouldn't "normal" computers with Windows/Linux make much more sense anyway? I fondly recall how a good friend of mine was impressed by the compute performance of the Apple based workstations at her university. I convinced her to get a PC for the same cost as…

Entertainers are not Engineers. They fall for marketing significantly easier and use Veblen goods to signal wealth and power. Then they get used to a system and it's all they know. It's more effort to change and they get locked in.

Don't be ridiculous. The designers at the highest level of entertainment are extremely technical.

Re: The impact of Apple Silicon Macs on Broadway

#270

Post by blymd »

yummypaint wrote: post #149
eggy wrote: post #143

Couldn't you use a PC box built for less than $600. Sound does not require near the bandwidth of video, and I am sure you could get a decent rig setup for that price. I have been doing low-latency audio on Windows for over a decade. I have used Ableton on Windows with my Novation X-Station 25 from 2005, and I play with Extempore[1] for livecoding, and Windows has been more than adequate. I used the X-Station as my so…

Yes, Im kindof baffled why they insist on a mac mini with such a tight budget. There are linux options too

There's zero upside to messing around with Linux. Software is one of the biggest issues.
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