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Poll: Do you support software patents?

news.ycombinator.com

131–140 of 319 posts

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#131

Since this is specific to software patents, my vote was to abolish them all. Patents on Software make not sense (other protections like Copyright, are essential, though). I have yet to see one "invention" that would not have seen the light of day without software patents. Patents are a method to protect significant costs cost of an invention (to incentivize research). Having an idea for an algorithm is does not repre…

One of the founders interviewed in Founders at Work mentioned something about this... I believe it was Woz.

I'm working at the moment, so can't refer to the book; if anyone else has it handy, please supply said quote. :D

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#132
post #63

This is one of those issues that I feel is more a member of tribal affiliation than anything substantive. It's like flag burning for us Republicans: if I were to rank order my political objectives, "prevent flag burning" would be somewhere in the x0,000s, but the tribe cares about this a lot for philosophical reasons (which I'm broadly speaking on board with) and as a result uses it as a signaling mechanism. Software…

Is that because you think the problem crops up so rarely, or because you think the problem is very minor in general? Do you think you would feel differently if you were sued for gazillions of dollars for violating a patent on, say, using computers to create games for use in schools?

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#133
post #122
post #58

At risk of taking an unpopular devils-advocate position: I think that the principle of patents is okay. Invest time and money developing an idea, with a guarantee of exclusivity on executing on that idea in the marketplace for a period of time. It encourages a level of risk taking for "getting there first". Software patents aren't any different in many respects because somebody has to go through the time and effort t…

I think that the principle of patents is okay. Invest time and money developing an idea, with a guarantee of exclusivity on executing on that idea in the marketplace for a period of time. It encourages a level of risk taking for "getting there first". Patents are an artificial system forced upon us with the hope that they accelerate innovation. Just as you said, the hope there is that it encourages someone to take th…

The problem with that hope is that it ignores how innovation happens. There is no reclusive mad scientist working in some dank basement on the next-best-great-thing. That's childish. Innovation happens through collaboration. You take someone else's work and you build upon it. Bit by bit, people build the next-best-thing.

That's a very interesting point(s). Again, arguing from a devil's advocate POV. People who are generally against software patents commonly make the claim that it stifles the innovation of the single person, sitting in the their dank basement working on the next-best-great-thing (see other comments in this topic for examples, including a rather brilliant quote by Carmack).

In terms of collaboration, sure, patentable ideas/software often exist due to collaborative team efforts, just like patentable physical widgets like industrial egg fryers. But that team is generally paid for by one company and the patent is then assigned to that company.

There really appears to be a few major issues that I see with the present system:

1) Patents are transferable

2) Patents aren't researched enough against prior art before reward

3) Patent length is too long

4) Fighting bad patents is expensive and overly hard, even when armed with tons of prior art

5) Patents don't necessarily need an extant physical or implemented example to be granted.

6) Patents can be granted without the intention of implementation.

I think for real patent reform to work, these 6 points need to be addressed to keep the concept of patents (risk in exchange for exclusivity) a workable model:

1) Patents shouldn't be transferable -- this eliminates patent trolls

2) The Patent Office needs to be properly funded and given enough time to properly research patents before grant.

3) Patents (like copyright) needs to be shorter and dependent on the effort required to create the patent in the first place. For example, software patents should probably only survive 12-18 months. That gives the owner a risk/exclusivity that's long enough and if the idea proves valuable, opens it up for others to use (and improve the economy as a whole) within a reasonable time. In other words, this recognizes that risk doesn't just end at the grant of a patent. Actually doing something with the patent is important.

4) Appealing bad patents should be relatively simple and swift.

5) You should actually be able to demonstrate something that's patented.

6) If you don't use the patent in a business use-case, you lose it. A bit like Trademark.

Just some random ideas.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#135
post #14

My vote would be "Yes, if the Patent office approved only real innovative things". For example if I come up with some revolutionary face recognition technology, that seems novel enough to be patented. But if I just make a form with a submit button (Google's Patented home page), or Amazon's one click purchasing those are just ridiculous as a patents.

If google really has a patent on that home page, I'd suspect it is a design patent, which is an entirely different kind of beast. It's more like trademark rights.

I don't know the differences but here is the Patent http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sec...

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#136
(I'm for abolishing all software patents.) The justification for patent protection is that is required to encourage innovation in the arts or some such. In reality, innovation in software is happening in spite of patents. Consequently, there is no justification for for granting this harmful monopoly.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#137

I can't stand the idea that I might be at my computer, working with code, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all software patents. edited to add "software".

I voted for the "abolish all" option despite the fact I'm actually in favor of patents in general and don't think software should be distinct from hardware, but the situation has gotten ridiculous (as has the situation with patents in general).

I think that software should only be protected by copyright if the source code is placed in escrow and made available when the company goes belly-up or when the (strictly limited) copyright period expires.

I think that the patent system needs to be thoroughly reformed so as to do a better job of covering software, hardware, and a blend of the two. John Carmack's example is compelling but if patents were handled properly the odds of such a thing occurring would be as remote as the odds of doing the same thing in your backyard workshop with a lathe.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact the way patents should work is that the patent officer spends a week trying to solve said problem themselves. Does that really sound at all scalable (or even reasonable) to you? I imagine that many of the proposals that move through the patent office are highly contextual and may be simple ideas wrapped up in daunting language. It seems reasonable that it would take far more than a week to even get your arm…

Either you're trolling, or you're unaware that there were close to 500,000 patent applications filed in 2009 alone[1]. Let's say you have 500 able critics; that puts us at 1,000 patents to review per officer per year. Let's assume any given officer can review an application within one week with reasonable efficacy; it'll take ~20 years to review one year's worth of applications (1000 / 50; I excluded two weeks for va…

Not trying to be an ass... But I would feel stupid if I didn't correct you. I'm sure it was just a typo though.

A year has 52 weeks (plus one or two days), if 2 of these weeks are vacations, 50 weeks remain. Therefore 1000 / 50 = 20.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is no difference. If you're going to claim that they're different because one may require a "non-trivial investment (1)" then you have to specify that hardware patents that only require a trivial investment are similarly invalid. The bottom line is that patents are patents. It's inconsistent to be against one type and not another. I understand why patents exist, but I also agree with the Carmack statement a…

It takes significantly less effort to create a piece of hardware from scratch if you have a reference design to crib from. However, if I independently develop a piece of software or an algorithm, there is a very strong chance that it took me the exact same amount of time and effort as the person who originally solved it. In the former case, it makes sense to enforce a patent, as copying their design directly eases my…

It takes significantly less effort to create a piece of hardware from scratch if you have a reference design to crib from.

However, if I independently develop a piece of software or an algorithm, there is a very strong chance that it took me the exact same amount of time and effort as the person who originally solved it.

These two instances are completely different. What about the hardware engineer who independently developed a piece of hardware? It would take him around the same amount of effort to create it as the original. Just like the software engineer who cribbed an existing design would have to do much less work than the original.

0% of the differences in effort have to do with physical vs software, and 100% to do with what references you have available to you before you get started.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact the way patents should work is that the patent officer spends a week trying to solve said problem themselves. Does that really sound at all scalable (or even reasonable) to you? I imagine that many of the proposals that move through the patent office are highly contextual and may be simple ideas wrapped up in daunting language. It seems reasonable that it would take far more than a week to even get your arm…

Either you're trolling, or you're unaware that there were close to 500,000 patent applications filed in 2009 alone[1]. Let's say you have 500 able critics; that puts us at 1,000 patents to review per officer per year. Let's assume any given officer can review an application within one week with reasonable efficacy; it'll take ~20 years to review one year's worth of applications (1000 / 50; I excluded two weeks for va…

Your position is not consistent or just poorly thought out, and poorly researched. Or maybe I'm just a troll.

> In fact the way patents should work is that the patent officer spends a week trying to solve said problem themselves. Does that really sound at all scalable (or even reasonable) to you?

So clearly you were saying that a week is too much time to spend on a patent. OK.

I imagine that many of the proposals that move through the patent office are highly contextual and may be simple ideas wrapped up in daunting language. It seems reasonable that it would take far more than a week to even get your arms around some of the problems themselves, let alone the solutions.

But in a week you can't understand the problem, much less a solution. So you seem to be saying that having a system where examiners approve patents they don't understand is preferred. I say that if the examiner can't understand the solution, much less the problem, then the patent is rejected. This will really get people to focus on writing clear patents, rather than the legalese that passes for a patent today.

But lets get to numbers. There are not 500 examiners. There are more than 6,000. So at one week per patent it's now less than two years per patent. That's actually about on par with the time today. That's extremely reaonable. And I'd argue that making patents more expensive, with less protection time, you'd reduce the number of SW patents, and thus probably can turnaround SW patents more quickly.

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