Poll: Do you support software patents? • Hacker News Board

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#31

Post by Symmetry » Mon, May 16, 2011, 3:52 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #17

ericHosick wrote: post #8

I've spent the last few years working on a new approach to developing software. I've spent a lot of my own money (at least $40,000 USD) on research to perfect it. Currently, from the research I've done, I've found no prior art. Should I be able to patent this technology? Should I just release it? If I just release it, wouldn't a large company patent aspects of it and sue me for infringement (it costs $ to prove prior…

Should I be able to patent this technology? Should I just release it? If I just release it, wouldn't a large company patent aspects of it and sue me for infringement (it costs $ to prove prior art). If you publish your code, it becomes prior art. It doesn't cost much to stand up in court and say "uh, look guys, this code you're suing me over was published before you applied for your patent", and the case would be thr…

Lawyers do sometimes mess up on dates. I hate to trot this story out yet again, but MIT did get sued because of my dorm's laundry webserver. A webserver which had been Slashdoted before the company applied for its patent.

Of course, they did back down once the facts were explained to them so you're right at least that far.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#32

Post by ajju » Mon, May 16, 2011, 3:54 PM UTC

I would love to see all software patents abolished.

I feel conflicted about having my name on several software patents - on account of working for (or co-founding) companies that needed defensive IP. Had I not been on the receiving end of a ridiculous software patent lawsuit while I was working at a startup, I would never have filed any patents when I started my own company. If the startup I worked for had not been acquired before they lost said lawsuit, it would have killed the company, destroying some amazing innovation and killing a couple of hundred jobs.

As things stand, even folks who oppose software patents don't really have an option but to file patents of their own unless they want to risk being sued into oblivion with no bargaining chips of their own.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#33

Post by ndefinite » Mon, May 16, 2011, 3:56 PM UTC

Stephan Kinsella makes a pretty compelling argument that's hard to refute: http://blog.mises.org/11717/against-intellectual-property-au...

Just because someone beat me to the patent office legally means I'm not permitted think up the same idea and use my computer to do the same. It's not even about copying, I'm legally limited in what I'm permitted to think up and do.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#34

Post by mseebach » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:00 PM UTC

omellet wrote: post #25

ry0ohki wrote: post #14

My vote would be "Yes, if the Patent office approved only real innovative things". For example if I come up with some revolutionary face recognition technology, that seems novel enough to be patented. But if I just make a form with a submit button (Google's Patented home page), or Amazon's one click purchasing those are just ridiculous as a patents.

Given how poorly the USPTO has performed thus far, it seems impossible that this could be correctly implemented. Better to err on the side of openness, and abolish them altogether.

It's obvious that there are enormous swathes of innovation in the IT world that either happened or would have happened without patents. Amazon would probably not have thought twice about developing one-click checkout if it hadn't been patentable and it seems perfectly plausible that RIM got the idea for the BlackBerry independently of that troll that sued them.

But there are also some pretty deep stuff that seems less obvious, my favourite example is MP3. I'm no expert in the field, but it does not seem at all obvious to me to compress music like that, and it seems to be the result of a real invention process.

It's clearly in everybody's interest that they publish their codec as widely as possible, rather than make a broke-by-design binary-only distribution. Why should they not be allowed the same protection as, say, Volkswagen inventing a new fuel pump?

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#35

Post by nh » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:00 PM UTC

mrcharles wrote: post #16

I can't stand the idea that I might be at my computer, working with code, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all software patents. edited to add "software".

devils advocate: What if you independently came up with tablet like device and called it an 'iPad'

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#36

Post by anamax » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:01 PM UTC

mrcharles wrote: post #16

I can't stand the idea that I might be at my computer, working with code, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all software patents. edited to add "software".

> I can't stand the idea that I might be at my computer, working with code, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all patents.

I can't stand the idea that I might be in my shop/lab, working with metal/wood/plastic/chemicals, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all patents.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#37

Post by jtregunna » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:02 PM UTC

I like the Canadian system of software patents. CIPO requires that software may only be patented in so far as the hardware it runs on is unique and patentable. I'm ok with those under the condition that the entities who hold the patent actually do something with it. Explicit timeframes should be in place to prevent these types of "business models" over long periods.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#38

Post by danssig » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:05 PM UTC

I see huge problems with the current system but in the current capitalistic world we live in there has to be a way to protect money/time spent on researching things. If the results of 10 years of research can be stolen as soon as they're announced no one is going to pay for research anymore.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#39

Post by kevinpet » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:06 PM UTC

The problem isn't whether the patent is in software, it's that that patent office grants patents on trivial things.

Should be patentable: RSA Should not be patentable: One click

The patent office needs to say "what problem does this claim to solve?" and then "if someone skilled in the art were faced with that problem, would the claimed invention really be novel and non-obvious".

RSA passes this test. Problem: secure encryption without prior secure key exchange. Solution: innovative math that makes that possible.

One click does not. Problem: if customers could avoid logging in multiple times, they'd buy more. Solution: set a cookie, using totally existing technology.

Some are still going to be borderline. Any useful rule is going to have questionable cases.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#40

Post by jcromartie » Mon, May 16, 2011, 4:06 PM UTC

albedoa wrote: post #23

mrcharles wrote: post #16

I can't stand the idea that I might be at my computer, working with code, and develop something independently which later causes me to get sued. Abolish all software patents. edited to add "software".

This John Carmack quote is relevant and shares your sentiments: "The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_D._Carmack

Except it's even worse than that: usually patent trolls haven't even written the code to solve the problem. Working code is not required to be granted a patent.