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Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

bbc.com

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Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#51

Post by jeofken »

HuwytNashi_006 wrote: post #28
rubycon22 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like asking why ethnically African people have a greater right to Africa than non-African people. Sounds dumb doesn't it?

I'm talking about France, not Africa. This is basically the same thing that white supremacists say: "Europe for Europeans". The sooner there is no longer even a concept of 'European' or 'French', the sooner humanity can move beyond racist policies such as in the related link.

> The sooner there is no longer even a concept of '(Arab|Jew)' or '(Yemeni|Israelite)', the sooner humanity can move beyond racist policies such as in the related link.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#52

Post by roel_v »

HeavenFox wrote: post #10
jollofricepeas wrote: post #3

The US could learn from this but is far too anti-immigrant to do the same. Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat.

...whereas three years of service in French Foreign Legion allows you to apply for citizenship, or immediately after you are wounded in battle ("French by spilled blood")

Serving in the Foreign Legion is not like 'being in the military' in other places...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#53

Post by randmeerkat »

neither_color wrote: post #14
jollofricepeas wrote: post #3

The US could learn from this but is far too anti-immigrant to do the same. Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat.

The US has the largest immigrant population in the world and one of the highest immigration rates among developed countries. I resent how casually blatantly false anti-US comments like this get voted up without any data to back them up, almost like it's a fad to talk-down America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...

It is a fad to talk-down America. It’s soft power in politics, something the US has been losing for many years now. Anti-Americanism and its rise is something extensively covered in academia over the past two decades, this is just 2020: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2020&q=anti+americ...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#54

Post by humanrebar »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

> I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration.

They are almost entirely orthogonal.

The intersection is in the relationship between "free trade" and immigration. That is, why should goods be free to trade but not labor, not that I'm advocating either way in this comment.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#55

Post by humanrebar »

cpursley wrote: post #40
bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

The free market libertarian position is very pro immigration (open minds, open markets, open borders) for the same reasons you mentioned. I would argue that many conservatives aren't really pro capitalism when it comes down to the details. Also, I noticed that the more socialist a country leans the more difficult it is to immigrate largely due to the potential burden that person may place on society (they require you…

I'd argue that most people aren't anti-capitalist either. Capitalism is mostly about individual property rights and the implications that fall out of it.

Most people who are critical of capitalism are conflating capitalism and corporatism. The essence of capitalism is hard to argue against without rejecting individual rights or currency or something similarly non-controversial and ingrained in society.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#56

Post by yodsanklai »

ronyfadel wrote: post #20
kergonath wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this fast track should be the norm. The naturalisation process is insanely long intentionally.

It is long for obvious reasons right? One needs to show that they have stayed in France sufficiently long to have had the “valeurs de la République” (values of the Republic) imbued in them, as well as speak a decent level of French and to have been well integrated in society. FWIW the overall wait time to become a French citizen is much less than most other European countries.

Once you are eligible for citizenship (which can take a long time) You must 1. take an appointment to have your document checked (waiting time 1 year) 2. take an appointment to submit the actual application (1 year) 3. wait for the result, 1 1/2 year.

So by the time you are eligible, it can take 3-4 years before you know the outcome of your application. These 3-4 years don't serve any obvious purpose that I can think of.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#57

Post by KaiserPro »

rubycon22 wrote: post #13
HuwytNashi_006 wrote: post #12

So if you're an indigenous Frenchman you're automatically entitled, but Africans must literally risk their lives before being eligible? And people are celebrating this... Why should ethnically French have a greater right to France than newcomers? It may have been their grandfather's homeland but it must not be their grandson's if we're ever going to progress. We're better than that now.

This is like asking why ethnically African people have a greater right to Africa than non-African people. Sounds dumb doesn't it?

You're looking at it from the wrong point of view.

France's colonies were, unlike Britian treated as part of france. That meant all of these areas in blue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire#/media/... are french, with the entire population being french citizens.

So this means that someone who is algerian could have french parents, but not be eligible for french citizenship. However if I as an EU citizen wanted to live in france, there is nothing stopping me.

In the same way that up to the 70s an english "colonial" had the right to a british passport. Until it was decided that it wasn't acceptable to have too many "colonials" about the place.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#58

Post by KaiserPro »

jeofken wrote: post #49
HuwytNashi_006 wrote: post #12

So if you're an indigenous Frenchman you're automatically entitled, but Africans must literally risk their lives before being eligible? And people are celebrating this... Why should ethnically French have a greater right to France than newcomers? It may have been their grandfather's homeland but it must not be their grandson's if we're ever going to progress. We're better than that now.

Because natives inherit the land from their forefathers.

Yeah but you are missing the essential part of the french empire: you're french.

So most of north africa has french ancestors.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#59

Post by RobertoG »

randmeerkat wrote: post #53
neither_color wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has the largest immigrant population in the world and one of the highest immigration rates among developed countries. I resent how casually blatantly false anti-US comments like this get voted up without any data to back them up, almost like it's a fad to talk-down America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...

It is a fad to talk-down America. It’s soft power in politics, something the US has been losing for many years now. Anti-Americanism and its rise is something extensively covered in academia over the past two decades, this is just 2020: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2020&q=anti+americ...

I think there are two factors to this "fad":

one is that USA for being the world superpower and through their media monopoly is always in the spotlight.

The second is that USA spend too much time saying how wonderful they are (that if you look to history with a little objectivity is not so wonderful). Reaction to this is almost inevitable.

I would like to present a trivial recent example: as you know, USA retired from the climate Paris agreement and, in general, is not doing so much like other nations despite being the worst in per capita terms.

Well, it seems that the new president want to go back to the Paris agreements and is framing it like "going back to led the world" in climate change. Going back to led the world? really?

I know, I know, this a sentence for internal consumption but still, how do you think it sounds in other countries?

I didn't touch the little fact of invasions of third countries and military bases all around the world.

So, maybe there is something to this fad? Maybe take it like feedback to correct a few things?

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#60

Post by bumbada »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

Capitalists(financial elite,landowners entrepreneurs and the politicians they buy)love immigrant workers.

The less they pay, the better for them. Don't like the misery salary? Look at the queue of people looking for the job willing to work for less.

It is middle and lower class workers who hate competition from low income workers. The miserable salary in the "rich" country is being rich in a poor country.

It is the middle and lower class those that suffer from the higher criminal rates because they are the ones who are being stolen or their houses occupied.

The rich live isolated in good places, with private security.

There are additional problems like the cultural one. Islam religion demands that their believers do not integrate ever in a non Muslim society so bringing millions of them to a non Muslim society means fragmenting it over time, like in Albania or Georgia(from Europe, not the American one).

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