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Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

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Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#41

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

One word: risk

Countries are not reluctant to allow immigration, they are reluctant to allow immigration of potentially harmful people (as long as we're below immigration capacity)

Proxies for "harmfulness" are:

- different culture estimated via parent citizenship, religion, and language

- less wealth, estimated by income (having a job already), income potential (education) and/or money in the bank account

In general, power-hungry politicians should aim for obtaining higher populations because it means more power.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#42

The US could learn from this but is far too anti-immigrant to do the same. Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat.

The US has the largest immigrant population in the world and one of the highest immigration rates among developed countries. I resent how casually blatantly false anti-US comments like this get voted up without any data to back them up, almost like it's a fad to talk-down America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...

Using absolute numbers probably isn't the smartest idea. Canada has more immigrants per population than USA.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#43
post #19

Reminds me of that case, in France too, in which a Malian immigrant has been offered citizenship and a job as a firefighter after he risked his life climbing a building to save a kid: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-hero/france-offers...

Also https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-train-terror-attac...

>Three California men have been granted French citizenship for their role in thwarting a terror attack on a French train in 2015.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#44
post #34
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US had Japan's policy you would hear a lot more complaints as relatively few people would be allowed in. Japan has less than 3m immigrants TOTAL. The US takes in about 1 million a Year. "most countries _don't_ just kick someone out on the first crime they commit." Neither does the US. Most of the time the crimes that lead to deportation are felonies. Why is the US obligated to keep non citizens who commit seri…

Japan doesn't have low numbers because of immigration quotas (they are in fact _trying_ to bring in more people, for its own reasons), and they have no immigration quotas. So I think the system would be welcome to many people who want to go to the US and who can meet the college degree criteria. Of course countries can do whatever they want (just from the notion of application of power). But I see immigration as a tw…

I suspect some of the reasons you and the person responding to you are not quite seeing eye to eye is that "immigration" has wrapped up both legal and illegal immigration. It's possible the US is relatively open to legal immigration compared to some countries while also being particularly egregious in it's handling of illegal immigration.

Even beyond than that, there are multiple facets of both legal and illegal immigration. Maybe the US both accepts larger numbers of immigrants legally but is also more intolerant of certain kinds of applicants than others.

When dealing with huge issues, I think it's deceptively easy to simplify the issue more than you realize. I know I've ended up in arguments where after far too much effort I realized we both actually more or less agreed with each other, but were simply focusing on different aspects of a larger issue.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which policy? The latest H1-B bill which lifts per-country caps passed unanimously in the senate and with a strong majority in the house. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1044 Certainly different people will have different opinions on what the "right" number of immigrants is but this is not an anti-immigrant country.

That's because it's designed to let in more rich Asians and less poor Latin Americans and Africans. In terms of popular political support I would say that the United States is very anti-immigrant, and has been for a very long time. The reason the U.S. continues to let in so many immigrants is because of business interests, which have always held considerable political power. And the reason the U.S. has such diversity…

Well lets add a nothing is obvious layer to this cake - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/20/us/politics/e...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#46

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

You have to look at what uncontrolled migration actually did to some parts of the world. Take a look at some of the “mega” cities in Southeast Asia, where unfettered migration to the cities lead to something unlivable. There is also a massive lack of opportunity since everyone saturates the same professions (or simply just too many people). The city might already have the right amount Rickshaw drivers, but now it’s got 10x more because of mass migration from villages to cities. Now do that across the board for everything, software, retail, etc. I won’t even mention how housing and infrastructure are impacted. This kind of unfettered pipe opening will just lead to more unemployed, higher housing prices, and so on. You have to consider these things or else you get an unlivable disaster (India, Bangladesh - just take look at their mega cities as case studies, total disasters).

Oddly, a little bit of gate keeping would actually help. Everything in moderation, a little bit of open borders, a little bit of gate keeping, a little bit of everything - but not too much. Japan might be on the opposite side of things with a little too much gate keeping. We need vigilant balance (constantly reassess, and calculate the impact of a batch immigrants across say ... 30 years, and project how we need to adjust the pipeline to maintain a healthy growth/quality of life balance).

I’ll tell you what I can’t stand though. I can’t stand people that minimize the logistical element of increasing the population of a region to a moral and emotional argument. If you don’t carefully consider capacity, and reduce the argument to platitudes of ‘this has always been a land of immigrants’, you will certainly fuck us by adding to already growing issues of a hyper competitive economy where people are fighting tooth and nail for unstable low wage gig jobs, competitive and costly higher education, hyper competitive knowledge industries, and of course the hyper hyper hyper fucked and competitive housing market.

I want us to seriously consider why we want to add more to a pot where we are already getting cramped in a variety of ways.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#47
post #24

The US could learn from this but is far too anti-immigrant to do the same. Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat.

Anti-Immigrant sentiment is rife here in New Zealand as well. In particular against Asians. If your skin is white, you blend easy here.

Is it a surprise that most people when free to decide wish to segregate?

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has the largest immigrant population in the world and one of the highest immigration rates among developed countries. I resent how casually blatantly false anti-US comments like this get voted up without any data to back them up, almost like it's a fad to talk-down America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...

Using absolute numbers probably isn't the smartest idea. Canada has more immigrants per population than USA.

And that is their decision. I think it is best for each country to decide for themselves, based on their culture, objectives, history, and values. France has a way of doing it, Canada has a way of doing it, China has a way of doing it, and the US has a way of doing it. One size fits all is least applicable when it comes to nation states.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#49

So if you're an indigenous Frenchman you're automatically entitled, but Africans must literally risk their lives before being eligible? And people are celebrating this... Why should ethnically French have a greater right to France than newcomers? It may have been their grandfather's homeland but it must not be their grandson's if we're ever going to progress. We're better than that now.

Because natives inherit the land from their forefathers.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#50
post #2

Service garuntees citizenship! Would you like to know more? Jokes aside, seems reasonable enough to grant citizenship for those who have performed exceptional civic duty.

To be fair, this fast track should be the norm. The naturalisation process is insanely long intentionally.

How short should it be? 6 months? 3 months?

Some comments from the pro-immigrant side astound me...

France has one of the most generous immigration policies imo. Citizenship in 5 years can easily be obtained by an highly-educated and skilled immigrant. They don't demand an exceptional knowledge of French or French customs and values.

Source:- considered it a few years back, decided against it

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