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Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

bbc.com

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Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#31

Post by wahern »

neither_color wrote: post #22
conanbatt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is in spite of immigration policy, not because of it.

Which policy? The latest H1-B bill which lifts per-country caps passed unanimously in the senate and with a strong majority in the house. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1044 Certainly different people will have different opinions on what the "right" number of immigrants is but this is not an anti-immigrant country.

That's because it's designed to let in more rich Asians and less poor Latin Americans and Africans.

In terms of popular political support I would say that the United States is very anti-immigrant, and has been for a very long time. The reason the U.S. continues to let in so many immigrants is because of business interests, which have always held considerable political power. And the reason the U.S. has such diversity of immigrants is because of the peculiarity of our laws (e.g. by promoting so-called chain migration, a term Trump has turned into a pejorative), which have largely stayed the same because of inertia and political deadlock, but as you pointed out this is likely to change soon.

Also, the U.S. is no longer unique in terms of its large foreign born population. The U.K., for example, has roughly the same percentage. Brexit is no coincidence. Ditto for Germany. Though AFAIU German anti-immigration sentiment is mostly focused on immigrants from outside the E.U. (e.g. Turkey), whereas a large part of the sentiment in the U.K. is focused on Eastern European immigrants. Thus Angela Merkel has managed to placate voters by tacitly supporting harsher restrictions at the E.U. border, the short-lived Syrian influx notwithstanding. Brexit was driven in part by, e.g., people being pissed at low-wage Polish migrants.

I'll agree that the U.S. isn't worse than other countries. And I suppose our history as being a melting pot relatively unique unto the world is still worth something. (Though many parts of Latin America also saw similar migration flows at the turn of the 18th century. There are still German speaking towns in Brazil, Welsh speaking towns in Argentina, and a curious number of ethnic Japanese all over South America.) But we don't really stand out anymore one way or the other.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#32

Post by koreanguy »

markdown wrote: post #5
jollofricepeas wrote: post #3

The US could learn from this but is far too anti-immigrant to do the same. Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat.

> Americans accept immigrants into their Armed Forces but regularly deport them even after they’ve served and been in combat. The United Kingdom as well: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/05/where-is-the-f...

unfortunately, sadly i think many of them should have been given right of stay in the country, if they served the nation. that is a extremely heavy deadly job. returning them back home would be unwise .

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#33

Post by bmsleight_ »

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard.

This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the reluctance with immigration ?

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#34

Post by rtpg »

bruceb wrote: post #26
rtpg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't vouch for everything about Japan's immigration policy, nor do I have first-hand experience with the US system. But despite Japan intaking a lot less, people who meet the "baseline requirements" (basically, college degree) can be consistently assured that they can get a work visa and not get arbitrarily kicked out of the country. Similarly, even the smallest companies (like miniscule, 5-people startups) are ab…

If the US had Japan's policy you would hear a lot more complaints as relatively few people would be allowed in. Japan has less than 3m immigrants TOTAL. The US takes in about 1 million a Year. "most countries _don't_ just kick someone out on the first crime they commit." Neither does the US. Most of the time the crimes that lead to deportation are felonies. Why is the US obligated to keep non citizens who commit seri…

Japan doesn't have low numbers because of immigration quotas (they are in fact _trying_ to bring in more people, for its own reasons), and they have no immigration quotas. So I think the system would be welcome to many people who want to go to the US and who can meet the college degree criteria.

Of course countries can do whatever they want (just from the notion of application of power). But I see immigration as a two way street. There's an invitation to come into a society, and a request to participate in it. Other people in society get second chances, they get opportunities to improve... I feel like extending that to everyone is the logical conclusion of a just society.

And... yeah maybe there's some abstract notions that underpin the US system. But when you look at the facts on the ground, I just don't see how you justify the draconian decisions applied to people after they've been a part of society for so long. What's the point of a bunch of theory if the practice turns into things like "ICE can lock someone up for years without them being allowed to see a judge"?

At least it's not at Australia-level cruelty, I guess...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#35

Post by bruceb »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

"lowers labour costs" So you want to drive down wages for working people? Better to take highly educated people who are going to compete against other highly educated people, not people who will compete against Americans who are less educated and who are not financially well off.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#36

Post by markvdb »

rubycon22 wrote: post #13
HuwytNashi_006 wrote: post #12

So if you're an indigenous Frenchman you're automatically entitled, but Africans must literally risk their lives before being eligible? And people are celebrating this... Why should ethnically French have a greater right to France than newcomers? It may have been their grandfather's homeland but it must not be their grandson's if we're ever going to progress. We're better than that now.

This is like asking why ethnically African people have a greater right to Africa than non-African people. Sounds dumb doesn't it?

Yes, certainly.

Ideally, this would be about all of us humans being responsible custodians of the entire earth during our short passage here.

In the mean time, you're free to celebrate this baby step towards humanity in France.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#37

Post by the-dude »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

If you are so curious, maybe you should do some more research.

I suggest visiting some suburbs of Paris, or Stockholm. Furthermore, we are already in the EU, which is a trade-block only, favoring capitalists ( and driving down labor costs ).

edit: If you want hard numbers, look up the labor participation for NL.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#38

Post by tomp »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

There needs to be a balance.

Unlimited immigration is unsustainable (Europe can’t support 3bn people), so there have to be some limits.

Also, I value my culture (not in the “food & language” sense, but in “enlightenment values” sense), and have no interest in admitting more people who don’t value or respect this culture.

Finally, you need to correctly read the situation. Most pro-immigration people support it to lower labour costs. They will of course deny it and claim “humanitarian reasons”, but it was plainly obvious during Covid, with e.g. UK companies complaining that fruit is gonna rot on the fields without immigrant labour... like, have you considered hiring locals??

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#39

Post by pseudo0 »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

Low-skill immigration, like the shop workers and cleaners cited in the article, is an example of private industry obtaining a small benefit (lower wages) at the cost of a significantly larger externality imposed on the government and society as a whole [0]. In an ideal capitalist system, these externalities would be properly factored into the cost of the outputs that use immigrant labor, likely making them uncompetitive.

[0] - https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#40

Post by cpursley »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #33

As a person that leans towards socialism. I want to understand from someone who leans towards capitalism, the reluctance with immigration. We have people who will travel large distances for a potential benefit (i.e risk takers), who like the articles mentioned, are happy to work hard. This is the ideal characteristics of an entrepreneur or early employee or a start-up. More labour, lowers labour costs. What is the re…

The free market libertarian position is very pro immigration (open minds, open markets, open borders) for the same reasons you mentioned. I would argue that many conservatives aren't really pro capitalism when it comes down to the details.

Also, I noticed that the more socialist a country leans the more difficult it is to immigrate largely due to the potential burden that person may place on society (they require you to have skills or capital, not have certain diseases, certifications, ect).

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