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Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

aktuelles.uni-frankfurt.de

71–80 of 104 posts

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Several classes of opioids have been shown to cause neuronal degeneration Question for you - is this "brain damage" that I often hear results from taking a particular drug the result of intentful downregulation of certain neuronal receptors (e.g., meth -> too much dopamine in synapse -> downregulate dopamine receptors), or is the drug actually killing brain cells/neurotoxic?

That's an excellent question, and an area of active research. It differs a lot by drug, though, because of their affect on different signaling systems, different neurons, and due to indirect damage to the brain from effects elsewhere in the body: 1. E.g., cocaine as a strong vasoconstrictor can directly cause cerebral ischemia, causing hypoxic damage to the brain. Acute hypoxic damage is relatively uncommon, but atro…

Wow, that's a really great summary, thank you! If you wouldn't mind, I am very curious about two things:

First, what's your opinion on alpha lipolic acid and MDMA neurotoxicity? Given its popularity and its rising use it'd be great to have a simple way to prevent MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, and ALA is pretty widely available and relatively cheap, but there doesn't seem to have been much research on its use in humans.

And second, how bad are the neurotoxic effects of these drugs? The internet has anecdotes in all directions, from people claiming serious issues from only a few low doses of (cocaine/opiates/MDMA/etc) to people claiming no issues whatsoever from significantly more extensive use at higher doses. I realize that every person is very different, and this is a sort of "how long is a piece of string" question, but what is your personal feeling? More and more college students are experimenting with MDMA and cocaine especially - do you think a few low doses cause serious permanent damage, or do you think the neurotoxicity wouldn't be serious enough for concern, or somewhere in the middle?

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#72
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some randos on the internet believe that you could consume a bottle of loperamide and overcome that inability to get into the brain. In theory that’s true (since the brain barrier is actively pumping it back out and there’s gotta be a limit to that rejection), but I don’t think it’s worked out in practice other than causing massive constipation. It's a medication that gets stolen by drug users which is a bit frustr…

> BNF and Department of Health (England) don't describe addiction to loperamide, but do describe its use as an adjunctive treatment for people trying to come off opioids, which suggests it's not that problematic As someone who suffers from IBS and takes loperamide regularly, while its not necessarily an addiction, I see forums of people (especially on /r/ibs) saying that it causes a dependency. I saw posts where peop…

after an accident ~15 years ago, I was discharged after 6 months on 120mg of Oxycontin daily (40mg 3x a day) After being frustrated being tethered to the oxy bottle, I went cold turkey. The first thing that happened after the withdrawal symptoms subsided was I found I had chronic diarrhea. After years with my doctor trying different things, I found that the symptoms could be managed with about 16mg of loperamide. That was great for a while, until the FDA restricted the bottle size. At that point I could no longer buy enough over the counter, so I now have my doctor prescribing it for me. Unfortunately 16mg a day is the largest amount they can prescribe (IFAIK) so if it gets worse, I'll have to figure out another solution.

I'm not sure why this happened, but my suspicion is that while hospitalized I was infected by MRSA, and to try to get rid of it they were dumping some of the more toxic anti-bacterials into me to get rid of the MRSA (which took a year and a half to get rid of.)

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#73
Why is this upvoted? I would expect Reddit or Facebook to contain these sorts of cancer treatment non-stories, but HN should know better. This is just like the other 3,000 articles you've seen toting some type of cancer treatment that either never sees the light of day, fails miserably and makes patients worse, or is not even remotely useful clinically.

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so I'm not a doctor or anyone with actual expertise in this area (I'm just a weirdo that reads way to much) and I am no way trying to challenge your expert opinion but I do have a question. Could the the result be attributed to something unique to loperamide's molecular structure versus traditional opioids? Again not an expert on this topic, but looking at the molecular structure of loperamide compared to organic…

Challenge away, it's the internet! I think that it's possible but unlikely that loperamide is having a unique effect, because (a) they've shown that it's operating via the ATF4 mechanism, which is the same mechanism we see in other opioids (and multiple other drugs), and (b) loperamide's activity has generally been pretty well characterized and it doesn't really stand out (it's by no means a new drug - I remember tak…

It could also be because they are seeing the ATF4 pathway light up (seaching for keys under the lamppost) and there's some side pathway that is molecule-specific, that is synergistic for the molecule's mechanism of action.

just playing devil's advocate for the paper -- I happen to agree with witty's original comment thesis (except for the argument based on the authority of the journal it was published in)

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#75
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same line as your #3... how are they targeting the ER of only the tumor cells and not normal cells?

A lot of chemotherapy is untargeted. The entire body is poisoned, and the cancer cells are more susceptible, for various reasons (weakness during cell division, which they do far more frequently than healthy cells, among other reasons). Hair loss, skin/nail problems, digestive tract problems, etc. These are all fast-growing cells. It's almost impossible to target cancer cells and not affect normal cells, because canc…

Yeah, but recent trends seem to be toward more targeted approaches. Seems a bit odd to be studying non-targeted approaches if there are a lot of newer targeted approaches emerging and in research that wouldn't have the same side effects.

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#76

Several classes of opioids have been shown to cause neuronal degeneration via ATF4 activation. So, key points: 1. Loperamide is not unique. I don't know why these researchers have singled it out. Is it because they heard there's an opioid that doesn't get you high? It only avoids getting you high because it doesn't get into the brain. IF you deliver it to the brain to treat a brain tumor, it will get you high. 2. Pat…

@wittyreference can this ATF4 stress-inducing pathway also lead to problems, perhaps even brain damage over the long term? Some people take suboxone daily (buprenorphine) and I cannot find anything anywhere talking about whether or not it activates the ATF4 pathway

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#77
post #28

Several classes of opioids have been shown to cause neuronal degeneration via ATF4 activation. So, key points: 1. Loperamide is not unique. I don't know why these researchers have singled it out. Is it because they heard there's an opioid that doesn't get you high? It only avoids getting you high because it doesn't get into the brain. IF you deliver it to the brain to treat a brain tumor, it will get you high. 2. Pat…

> It only avoids getting you high because it doesn't get into the brain. People do get high on immodium [0]. With huge doses, but still. 0: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2018/01/31/fda-cr...

A few years ago, I wanted to buy a small bottle of imodium before a trip overseas. There were people on amazon selling lots of 800 pills.

I always worried about the diarrhea problem that would justify such a purchase, but I guess this explains it.

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#78

Several classes of opioids have been shown to cause neuronal degeneration via ATF4 activation. So, key points: 1. Loperamide is not unique. I don't know why these researchers have singled it out. Is it because they heard there's an opioid that doesn't get you high? It only avoids getting you high because it doesn't get into the brain. IF you deliver it to the brain to treat a brain tumor, it will get you high. 2. Pat…

Not to be cinic here, but it probably depends on what company sponsored their research, and wanting to profit off this drug

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#79

Several classes of opioids have been shown to cause neuronal degeneration via ATF4 activation. So, key points: 1. Loperamide is not unique. I don't know why these researchers have singled it out. Is it because they heard there's an opioid that doesn't get you high? It only avoids getting you high because it doesn't get into the brain. IF you deliver it to the brain to treat a brain tumor, it will get you high. 2. Pat…

> 1. Loperamide is not unique. I don't know why these researchers have singled it out.

From the paper:

> We previously screened a library containing autophagy-inducing compounds and identified the Food and Drug Administration-approved drug loperamide (LOP) as potent inducer of ACD in the glioblastoma multiforme (GBM) cell line MZ-54 [7]

7: Zielke S, Meyer N, Mari M, et al. Loperamide, pimozide, and STF-62247 trigger autophagy-dependent cell death in glioblastoma cells. Cell Death Dis. 2018;9:994

Re: Anti-diarrhoea drug drives cancer cells to cell death

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an excellent question, and an area of active research. It differs a lot by drug, though, because of their affect on different signaling systems, different neurons, and due to indirect damage to the brain from effects elsewhere in the body: 1. E.g., cocaine as a strong vasoconstrictor can directly cause cerebral ischemia, causing hypoxic damage to the brain. Acute hypoxic damage is relatively uncommon, but atro…

Wow, that's a really great summary, thank you! If you wouldn't mind, I am very curious about two things: First, what's your opinion on alpha lipolic acid and MDMA neurotoxicity? Given its popularity and its rising use it'd be great to have a simple way to prevent MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, and ALA is pretty widely available and relatively cheap, but there doesn't seem to have been much research on its use in humans.…

So, my interest in these drugs is primarily from a therapeutic standpoint, so those without therapeutic effects are less within my wheelhouse. My ignorance caveated, I'll say with a grain of salt:

1. We have a shitty understanding of chronic MDMA toxicity in human beings. Rat and primate models of MDMA differ in the primarily damaged pathways (non-human primates it has a pronounced effect on serotonergic cells; in rats it has a pronounced effect on dopaminergic cells). It's also a "dirty" drug, in that it hits a number of different receptor types - which means its downstream effects are going to be in a bunch of different pathways. And even those receptors are dirty - the serotonin 2A receptor that MDMA hits is involved in a wide variety of cellular functions.

Beyond that, we do know that a number of MDMA metabolites are directly capable of forming free radicals (such as quinone and thioester compounds), and oxidative damage is a serious problem in any cell tissue, but especially in brain, where cell replacement is generally too slow to matter. In rats, we've directly observed the production of compounds due to free radical exposure after MDMA injection, strongly suggesting that that is a mechanism of damage in the brain. (We also find that in rats that over-express copper superoxide dismutase, an antioxidant mechanism, there's resistance to MDMA toxicity.)

MDMA has also been shown to induce neuronal apoptosis that is inhibited by serotonin2A blockage, but... serotonin2A has such a wide variety of effects, I won't even guess as to what the direct pathway of that interaction is, much less how to block it.

ALA is a fine anti-oxidant. However, I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket, for the following reasons:

1. Anti-oxidants mitigate the damage of oxidizers, the way that cops on the street mitigate street crime. Some of the cops are gonna do stuff you don't like (we also depend on free radical mechanisms for destroying nascent cancer cells and bacteria - ALA doesn't discriminate); some of the criminals are going to slip by anyway (oxidizing damage will continue to accrue, if slower).

2. ALA to my knowledge has been studied to the extent of "we gave rats ALA and MDMA for two weeks, and the ALA group seemed to have less grossly visible brain damage." I expect diminished brain function long before we have significantly detectable anatomic changes. (There's also a tiny crap study or two showing it didn't have any protective benefit at all, but I tend not to lean on 'tiny crap studies'.)

3. ALA as a protective mechanism relies on oxidation being the main mechanism of damage. It might be; we don't know. If the main mechanism of damage is serotonin-pathway-driven apoptosis, or serotonin-pathway-driven neuronal structural change, or dopaminergic-pathway-etc. then ALA will not play a meaningful role in preventing long-term damage. It would just be hitting entirely the wrong mechanism.

Bottom-lining it: if a patient said "I'm definitely going to do MDMA and you can't talk me out of it, should I take ALA to try and mitigate the harm?" I'd say yes, sure, it's not likely to do meaningful harm if you're not on it for years (or don't have a disease that causes you to have an impaired oxidative immune function.) If a patient said, "I'm curious about MDMA but only if I can do it safely, can I do it if I take it with ALA?" my answer would have to be, "There's no good evidence that ALA is protective, and several mechanisms of damage besides the one that ALA acts on. If you're not comfortable doing MDMA without ALA, I wouldn't do it with ALA."

As to how bad the effects are:

No one really knows. My professional opinion is that most of the low-grade effects are likely to be behavioral/psychiatric, and due to our generally poor ability to quantify and track psychiatric symptoms, and the social confounders that accompany drug use, we're unlikely to have any good idea about what their adverse effects are. My most honest answer is a profession of ignorance.

My personal opinion is that, assuming someone is healthy and doesn't have any particular underlying risk factor, almost none of these drugs are going to do meaningful neurological harm if done a couple of times. My bigger concern lies in (a) people with underlying psychiatric risk factors, (b) in combinations (alcohol + coke + etc.), and (c) non-neurological effects.

Opioids can absolutely kill you stone dead the first time you take them - but not from its neurotoxic effect. Given the spate of fentanyl being cut into the street drugs these days, and unregulated dosing, it's the one drug I'd tell people to stay away from like their life depends on it. Though obviously if you're taking a prescription pill one time at low dose, it's a different story.

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