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Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

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Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#451

Post by domano »

DavidAdams wrote: post #117
domano wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to point out that it is called duct tape, just to avoid misunderstandings since i had a similiar spelling error as a non-native speaker :)

Interestingly, waterproof fabric-based tape was originally called "duck tape" (for its waterproof quality). The same kind of tape was later also called duct tape, but it's actually pretty terrible for ducts. You want to use the all-aluminum tape for ducts. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/52151/it-duck-tape-or-du...

Oh wow, so there actually is something called Duck Tape. TIL

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#452

Post by still_grokking »

satyrnein wrote: post #431
still_grokking wrote: post #399

Likely an unpopular opinion. But anyway. I think the presented thingy is fundamentally wrong. It's just another attempt to put the square peg in a round hole. The point is: "The web" is not, and never was, a framework for application development! It's the wrong tool. No matter how hard you try. You want to build applications? Use tools that where build from the ground up to support application development. On mobile…

So if you want to build the next big social app, sure you build a native mobile app. But then what, you build a _desktop_ app, because that's better on certain technical dimensions than a webapp? Should facebook.com have simply offered Windows and Mac installers instead?

Like Telegram Desktop? Why not if it would result in a similarly smooth experience.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#453

Post by IggleSniggle »

p1necone wrote: post #436
Nextgrid wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: is there any error handling in the majority of SPAs today? From my experience, SPAs can crap out in all kinds of interesting ways when the underlying network connection is flaky and I often end up stuck on some kind of spinner that will never complete (nor give me a way to abort & retry the operation when I already know it won't complete and don't want to wait for the ~30-second timeout, if there is a t…

Facebook does this constantly for me. It's a crapshoot whether I'll be able to open notifications or messages without a couple of refreshes, or if I'll just get the fake empty circle loading UI indefinitely until I hit F5.

This is my experience in Reddit generally these days on mobile Safari

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#454

Post by com2kid »

axegon_ wrote: post #96
rektide wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of duck tape yes, But there is suprisingly little layers on layers. Part of what has been amazing about the web is that the target remains the same. There is the DOM. Everyone is trying different ways to build & update the DOM. Agreed that there are better alternatives than a lot of what is out there. We seem to be in a mass consolidation, focusing around a couple very popular systems. I am glad to se…

If by surprisingly little, you mean 4 pages and 500mb of requirements for a "hello world" project with the "modern" web, then yes. The DOM has always been a mess, much like javascript. And the fact that no one has tried to do something about it contributes to the mountains of duckt tape. It was bad enough when angular showed up, but when all the other mumbo jumbo showed up like react, vue, webpack and whatnot is when…

> If by surprisingly little, you mean 4 pages and 500mb of requirements for a "hello world" project with the "modern" web, then yes.

React is well under 20k.

FWIW when optimizing my SPA, my largest "oops" in regards to size were an unoptimized header image, and improperly specified web fonts.

There are some bloated Javascript libraries out there, yes. But if you dig into them you will often find that they are bloated because someone pulled in a bunch of binary (or SVG...) assets.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#455

Post by IggleSniggle »

krsdcbl wrote: post #383
domano wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to point out that it is called duct tape, just to avoid misunderstandings since i had a similiar spelling error as a non-native speaker :)

it's funny how culture shapes our designations of the same thing. In (specially us) english it's duct tape as the product is primarily known for installation work, and often referred to as "duck tape" for it's well known brand, whereas in (german speaking) europe we also employ an English word for it, but call it "gaffer tape", for it's usage by light operators in the event business (so called gaffers)

Gaffers tape is a very different kind of tape similar only in appearance. It’s got a soft cotton content and is used to keep wires taped to things like rugs seamlessly so that people walking around your studio/tv-station/theatre etc don’t accidentally trip on it, potentially damaging the extremely expensive attached equipment in the process. If you’ve ever tried using “duct tape” as gaffers tape, you’d have a bad time, as it wouldn’t be that great at keeping wires down AND it’s likely to leave a residual adhesive on the floor when you take it off.

Duck tape is the stuff developed for the US army to waterproof things closed. Post-war, they made it silver instead of green and marketed it for use with ducts (since being waterproof made it also SEEM like a good candidate for the job in heating systems), but its pretty terrible for this purpose since temperature changes degrade the adhesive rapidly.

The tape you actually want to use for ducts is foil-backed tape.

In short, it was and still is a great marketing gimmick, but Duck Tape was only ever “ok” at keeping things water proof and only looks like gaffers tape or the tape you want to use on ducts.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#456

Post by chrismccord »

sb8244 wrote: post #440
nickjj wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fwiw, you can use long polling for LiveView if you wanted. How does that work for page transitions? The docs don't mention anything about this or how to configure it. With Turbolinks or Hotwire Turbo Drive, the user clicks the link to initiate a page transition and then the body of the page is swapped with the new content being served over HTTP. With Turbo Frames the same thing happens except it's only a designated…

It uses long polling over http. To be clear it's not restful http, but it's not websockets. I believe that Chris doesn't believe it's important for most people so there are no directions right now. Could be wrong there, I'm not Chris. Page changes are still initiated by the client in LiveView (although can be server initiated) LiveView is just channels under the hood. Once you consider that, long polling may seem mor…

Since LiveView is built on phoenix channels, it's the same story. Simply pass the `transport: LongPoll` option to the LiveSocket constructor and you're now using long polling with LV :)

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#457

Post by p1necone »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #453
p1necone wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook does this constantly for me. It's a crapshoot whether I'll be able to open notifications or messages without a couple of refreshes, or if I'll just get the fake empty circle loading UI indefinitely until I hit F5.

This is my experience in Reddit generally these days on mobile Safari

This combined with them intentionally breaking the mobile web experience has almost entirely stopped me from using Reddit.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#458

Post by qudat »

mhh__ wrote: post #426
philote wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. And I'm still amazed that people loved JS so much they put it on the SERVER too! And now node/npm is everywhere.

I think a huge amount of that success is because JS is cheap to hire, i.e. Node is fast enough so why bother using a good language (cynically). Anecdotally, most people I see who really really love JavaScript are kids who haven't really don't much else.

Yikes, what a condescending comment. I’d argue why this comment is beyond misguided but I’d be wasting my time.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#459

Post by qudat »

Trasmatta wrote: post #300
devwastaken wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are, look at the context of what they're saying. JS is simply a programming language in a VM like plenty of others, there's nothing inherently bad about it. But every thread here's the uneducated hate for it, completely misunderstanding that html/css static pages don't solve the problems a programming language does. I'd like to see these people make applications in pure XML. No programming.

No, the argument has never been "replace all JS with static HTML/CSS". The argument is "JavaScript frontends are becoming unnecessarily bloated, slow, and complicated, and we can do better". Solutions like the one Basecamp is proposing with Hotwire include pushing as much rendering logic as possible to the server, where you're using a language like Ruby for logic. Nobody thinks you can just remove all logic from a we…

“Bloated.” This is actually the opposite. Go into a language like python and install numpy (30mb) and then come back to complain to me about a 2mb js bundle.

This argument is so bogus if you look at alternative language dependency sizes.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#460

Post by [deleted] »

domano wrote: post #451
DavidAdams wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, waterproof fabric-based tape was originally called "duck tape" (for its waterproof quality). The same kind of tape was later also called duct tape, but it's actually pretty terrible for ducts. You want to use the all-aluminum tape for ducts. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/52151/it-duck-tape-or-du...

Oh wow, so there actually is something called Duck Tape. TIL

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