How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#81

Post by dvdhnt » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #58

This saccharine rags-to-riches, pro-corporate fairy tale makes me so sad and mad, all the more so for the unreflective adulation it has gotten.

[opinion to follow, my own]

Even in 2020, while the rich get richer (literally being subsidized by COVID "relief" bills) and the poor are looking to avoid being evicted, the flood of pro-corporate defenders is never ending. It is a true downside to having such a large, albeit fragile middle-class.

The fundamental premise of this story is flawed given how most board/c-suite positions are attained and how almost all wealth is acquired e.g. inherited.

And HN is not immune to the rallying cry of defending billionaires and our perverted version of a "free-market" (lol).

Anyway, I'm mad, too, internet stranger. I'm mad that we spend more time admiring CEOs than we do fixing real problems.

Cheers and I hope you read this before the downvotes cause it to fade.

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#82

Post by tomcam » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

Glench wrote: post #40

Two things I haven't seen anyone mention that seem important: 1. For the one person who has "made it" economically, there are countless others that haven't, that still live in one-room houses. What about them? 2. I think it's worthwhile pointing out that the product that he created, while popular and financially successful, is a junk food that has a significant impact on the health of adults and children worldwide. W…

> For the one person who has "made it" economically, there are countless others that haven't, that still live in one-room houses. What about them?

Nothing stopping you from writing their stories. Glad you’re showing such a vigorous interest in them. Let me know when you start posting!

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#83

Post by takeiteasyy » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #77

GuB-42 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not "an insight a child would have". Good ideas mean nothing unless it leads to a marketable product. And for one smart janitor with business sense there are thousands of people who will just cost the company money. The CEO here managed to notice that among thousands, this is the janitor to listen to. As for CEO being well paid, it is simply because their decisions can make the company lose or earn a lot of mon…

> It is not "an insight a child would have". Are you sure? Children listen to janitors just as much as they listen to anyone else. One's job doesn't matter to a child; they know they can learn from anyone. Very few CEOs know this. Hell, very few ADULTS know this. I didn't intend "an insight a child would have" to mean that such an idea is a basic thing everyone knows, I literally meant "an inside a child would have."

You can become the world's first CEO with a boardroom full of janitors

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#84

Post by dvdhnt » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

Mulpze15 wrote: post #30

Richard Montañez has all my admiration for what he achieved. This is a beautiful story. Unfortunately, those kinds of stories also play into the narrative: be a good model employee, make sure the floors shine and trust that hard work, and great ideas will make you deservedly insanely rich. Because there are smart CEOs who will see all of that Cinderella, capitalist version. Too rare to be significant as a policy. Mos…

> Too often, dreams are useful to convince people to accept their fate.

It's sad how right you are. And it's sad how trying to educate others and acknowledge the facade puts a target on your back, then suddenly the same people who you want to help now see you as the enemy.

Cheers.

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#85

Post by kube-system » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

Guest42 wrote: post #79

kube-system wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A job that supports the core business is definitely not the same thing as a job unique to the product offering or business model. e.g. food safety is something that is important to PepsiCo's business, yet they are far from the only business that needs food safety expertise. In contrast, they may also need potholes filled in the parking lot, but they may choose to hire outside help for this, because they do not do it…

I think the distinctions between supports and essential to value get pretty subjective. Since 2008 the number of contracting roles has increased quite a bit and there are disputes as to whether Uber drivers (or engineers) are employees. I’d claim there is an unnecessary and unhelpful bias towards outsourcing (not saying that it’s always wrong, just more prevalent than ideal...).

Well, Uber drivers definitely directly support Uber's primary business. So I'd say that's a different situation altogether. (and they're not really outsourced, Uber directly "contracts" each one of them) Many businesses fail when trying to outsource staff that directly support their primary product or service.

A more direct comparison to the issue of Frito-Lay's janitorial staff is something like: should Yellow Cab should hire their own car wash staff or make a deal with a local car wash?

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#86

Post by BoorishBears » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

Glench wrote: post #60

zpeti wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s sad to see that in the last 10 years this type of comment (tries to) ruin every single inspirational story. Just because there’s shit in the world doesn’t mean there isn’t beauty and greatness and awesomeness sometimes. In fact that’s what makes it wonderful. If you’re bitter and all you see is the shit, and resent any inspirational story, well, good luck to you but I definitely don’t think you’ll have a product…

Ooh! I'm happy to supply a feel-good story that is (as far as I can tell), unreservedly good: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200915-the-himalayan-in... "The Himalayan invention powered by pine needles" TLDR: man and wife move to poor rural region of Indian, see wild fire problem caused by pine needles, invent a machine that turns pine needles into electricity and cooking fuel, employ villagers to pick up pine n…

Two things I haven't seen anyone mention that seem important:

1. For the villages that have now "made it" economically, there are countless others that haven't, that still live in one-room houses. What about them?

2. I think it's worthwhile pointing out that the product that he created, while popular and financially successful, is still used in the same settings charcoal is. And while carbonized briquettes produce less emissions that charcoal, there are still a non-negligible amount of particulates generated. By introducing a new source of this type of fuel he could be creating a local maxima that's still far from ideal. Additionally what are the effects of the type of repetitive labor these people are up to?

That said, it's wonderful to see someone lifted out of poverty. I hope millions more have the same chance.

(Do you get why some people are pushing back on your comment above? You can come up with this kind of stuff for anything. You can't eat an apple today without possibly furthering child labor, our world is too complex to try and turn every feel good story into a dig for downsides, because they will always exist. It is in no way "important" to do suss them out. And it's fine to discuss them, but you don't need to make it a reaction to the feel good story, you're allowed to just discuss these topics independently of the story)

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#87

Post by BoorishBears » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

spicyramen wrote: post #36

This is a good story that poses philosophical questions as what intelligence means. Regardless his social class and jobs he look for opportunities and achieved success. There is a movement in tech for underrepresented minorities. I would dispute that opportunities should be given to anybody regardless their social class race or background, just not only latinos, black or women

There is a movement in medicine to find a cure for breast cancer. I would dispute that research should be given to all cancers, regardless of the body part, not just breast, brain, or lung

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#88

Post by GoodJokes » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #16

This is a really nice story, but you know who the other hero is? The CEO who gave him the time and the opportunity. He could've easily told him to fuck off, as many would do. Who was he, what's his name? More often than not, we get nowhere without people in better positions helping us, it would be great if more people would keep an open mind like that. That CEO deserves recognition. And if you manage to climb higher…

I just can’t even. What if there weren’t insane ladders to climb. This kneejerk reaction to lick the boots of a CEO is...disturbing.

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#89

Post by GoodJokes » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

nescioquid wrote: post #66

naikrovek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah CEOs never get enough respect. Also they're paid FAR too little for having an insight a child would have... Good leadership is rare, you're right, and I don't think CEOs deserve credit for demonstrating good leadership. Good leadership should be table stakes for that position; the bare minimum. What needs to change are the astonishingly weak disincentives (and sometimes, actual incentives) aimed at bad CEOs. If…

The temptation might be to treat the story like a rags-to-riches fairy tale, but it is instead a parable if you read it from the point of view of a leader (which admitedly would be resisting the author's narrative).

And what is the moral of the parable? My opinion? Hierarchies are bullshit. They are not based on merit.

Re: How a janitor at Frito-Lay invented Flamin' Hot Cheetos (2017)

#90

Post by hardtke » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #78

NDizzle wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that companies outsource all of the janitorial duties now? I'm in Arkansas, so crack all the jokes you want, but the big places that produce a lot of food (McKee comes to mind - Little Debbie) staff their own positions. https://mckee.wd1.myworkdayjobs.com/mckee/jobs So, in other words, yeah, you could be a janitor and potentially propose a new Little Debbie snack right now. That particular dream is s…

Yep - many, if not most, factories staff these positions themselves. It fits in with their existing maintenance, assembly, cleaning, warehouse type roles. It's mainly white collar places that don't know how, or don't want to, hire anyone who does blue collar work.

Part of the reason white collar firms outsource is that benefits usually need to be uniform across all employees. If you are a white collar firm with generous benefit packages, it becomes comparatively expensive to hire blue collar workers yourself compared to outsourcing. Decent health insurance (~$20K/year) is more than the federal minimum wage ($14.5K/year). I'm not suggesting this is moral, but it is reality. At a factory, with many workers at similar pay levels, this won't be as much of an expense.

Unfortunately, a second reason you see outsourcing are job functions where many of the workers in a geographic area are undocumented. Companies can't hire undocumented workers directly, but will allow a middleman to do so on their behalf.