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Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

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Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#661

Post by hrktb »

thayne wrote: post #521
simonh wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is laptop lids are a lot thinner than smartphones and just don't have the depth to contain a decent optic. Apple have tried to mitigate this a bit in the new M1 machines using some computational photography to improve the image. The Surface machines from Microsoft actually stand out in this regard. Because the brains of the machine are in the same section as the screen and camera, they are a lot thicker a…

But why can't I buy an external webcam, where that isn't an issue, with the same quality as a smartphone camera?

Wouldn’t a smartphone work for you then ?

it might need a mount to be properly positionned, but that would be the only IRL hurdle. On the software front I don’t know how good the current options are, but fixing bugs should be doable.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#662

Post by mxfh »

gonehome wrote: post #560
jldugger wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, in 2019 this article made sense. If there is ever a year to launch a high end webcam, it was 2020. A ton of professionals with disposable income and very few ways to spend it, sitting in Webex and Zoom calls all day. People are dropping tons of cash for ring lights and Lume Cubes. These are already serving the Youtuber market, the same way that podcasters enjoy Blue Yetis. Which makes me wonder, what cameras are…

When I looked into it they’re mostly using mirrorless cameras like the Panasonic Lumix GH5 or the Sony a7siii with something like the elgato camlink 4k to get clean output.

The Sony A7SIII sensor is just as good as it gets outside of cinema rental market. But certainly any post 2010 APS-C or bigger Sony should do to reliably differentiate from consumer webcams, all you need is a bit more light. Maybe get a prime lens on top and that's it, if you're willing to deal with a HDMI capture setup. The specs of some 4k drone gimbals are also impressive, also using mostly Sony sensors, those might be the next best thing to motorized gimbal setups with optical zoom lens, like those used in telepresence sytems:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25511682

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#663

Post by simonh »

okr wrote: post #481
simonh wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is laptop lids are a lot thinner than smartphones and just don't have the depth to contain a decent optic. Apple have tried to mitigate this a bit in the new M1 machines using some computational photography to improve the image. The Surface machines from Microsoft actually stand out in this regard. Because the brains of the machine are in the same section as the screen and camera, they are a lot thicker a…

My laptop lid is as thick as my smartphone. I think there is enough space. I think the technology from smart phones has not swept over to laptop lids yet.

If you have a decent thickness laptop lid and still have a crappy built in webcam, that’s just straight up nickel and dimming by the manufacturer.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#665

Post by seppin »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #329

The real reason is buried in the article: You can’t buy a good webcam because the number of people willing to pay a lot of money for a high end webcam is very small. At the lower end, people are satisfied with their built in laptop parts or a cheap webcam that sits on top of their monitor. At the high end, people go down the rabbit hole of buying a do-everything mirrorless camera that they can use for so much more th…

Also, as someone that recently upgraded their wifi router and runs a ping script to make sure my connection is always good, upgraded my mic for better sound quality, etc only to have zoom video calls with people on an iPhone with shit reception, fixing your end only does so much.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#666

Post by gonehome »

mxfh wrote: post #662
gonehome wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I looked into it they’re mostly using mirrorless cameras like the Panasonic Lumix GH5 or the Sony a7siii with something like the elgato camlink 4k to get clean output.

The Sony A7SIII sensor is just as good as it gets outside of cinema rental market. But certainly any post 2010 APS-C or bigger Sony should do to reliably differentiate from consumer webcams, all you need is a bit more light. Maybe get a prime lens on top and that's it, if you're willing to deal with a HDMI capture setup. The specs of some 4k drone gimbals are also impressive, also using mostly Sony sensors, those mig…

Yeah I think you're right.

I got the LG Meetup for my living room at the start of Covid and it's mostly an overpriced disappointment. I also had to get the external mic because the built in one doesn't have the range advertised (they actually advertise two different numbers).

I wanted something I could just plug into my TV PC to use for video chat. The Rally setup has the PTZ camera I wanted, but requires two external boxes which (as far as I can tell) serve no necessary purpose other than bad design.

In hindsight the PTZ rally camera with an unrelated third party mic would probably have been the best bet. I would have thought El Gato would come out with some high quality webcam eventually.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#667

Post by Groxx »

hrktb wrote: post #661
thayne wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why can't I buy an external webcam, where that isn't an issue, with the same quality as a smartphone camera?

Wouldn’t a smartphone work for you then ? it might need a mount to be properly positionned, but that would be the only IRL hurdle. On the software front I don’t know how good the current options are, but fixing bugs should be doable.

It probably would, and there are apps to do exactly this. Mounts are cheap enough to be reasonable, though there aren't many specialized for this yet.

Personally I don't think they'll even take half of this market - it means you can't fiddle with your phone while on a call.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#668

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

pembrook wrote: post #217
Joeri wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s more of a “the market won’t pay for quality” problem. People won’t pay thousands of euros for a good monitor, so manufacturers have to slap together the parts available in bulk in order to reach price points people will pay. The LG 5K is a good example, because it is clearly compromised to reach a somewhat reasonable price point. From what I can tell the monitor market mostly exists to cater to the gener…

I don’t think that’s it. Apple is the most valuable company on earth right now, entirely due to their thesis that people will pay for quality hardware. The “creator” market is much more profitable than the gamer market where kids only have as much as mom will allow them to spend (vs The tech workers, coders, designers, youtubers, etc that need high quality displays to make a living). It’s why Apple is able to get ins…

> The “creator” market is much more profitable than the gamer market where kids only have as much as mom will allow them to spend (vs The tech workers, coders, designers, youtubers, etc that need high quality displays to make a living).

This is a common misunderstanding of the gaming market due to stereotyping. The biggest age category in gaming is 18-34 by far. They generally also slant strongly to people with both more than average disposable income and higher likelihood to spend that same on gaming and related electronic toys. This makes gaming a 100 billion dollar market atm which is still growing rapidly.

> Both of which are market segments with terrible margins.

Not even close to accurate. Gaming related hardware is generally quite high margin. There's a reason ASUS et all use their gaming imprints as the place to introduce new high end parts. It's also a highly concentrated and networked market, making it very efficient to advertise to.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#669

Post by sfink »

IshKebab wrote: post #593
sambroner wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not sure I buy this... The number of people willing to pay significant money for a high end webcam was very small. Now my parents and their friends are talking about better lighting and camera angles. It seems like this industry is unusually ripe for a "better webcam" that "just works"

Sure, so who's going to start a webcam company and design a cheap good webcam in less than a year for a market that will be dead again in less than a year?

Might be dead again.

With (1) a virus that's going to keep mutating and require regular vaccine updates, (2) the current vaccines with two separated shots and unpleasant side effects, and (3) people ditching their masks even more now that vaccines are in the picture, I'm guessing there's enough uncertainty that people and companies with the money to buy down risk will still be interested for quite some time.

Though it'll still be competing with better lighting setups and recommendations for people to just videoconference from their cell phones. I wouldn't want to risk my capital on it, even though I'm pretty frustrated with my webcams' low quality.

Re: Why can’t you buy a good webcam?

#670

Post by chrisweekly »

Firadeoclus wrote: post #405
atoav wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked as a freelance DOP and worked with cameras + lenses that coat more than a decent car. And while there is certainly room for improvement with typical webcams: the problem is in many cases not the camera, but the conditions under which it operates. Low light, shooting against the light, smeared laptop lenses, weird angles (not eye level), weird perspective framing, bad combination of light and framerates, mixe…

> And while there is certainly room for improvement with typical webcams: the problem is in many cases not the camera, but the conditions under which it operates. Low light, shooting against the light, smeared laptop lenses, weird angles (not eye level), weird perspective framing, bad combination of light and framerates, mixed light temperatures, low CRI lighting, etc. If you take an 40k€ Arri and a 20k€ Zeiss Prime…

Good point. Speaking of phone cameras...

I've had success using my iPhone for video capture via OBS. The setup was a bit fiddly, but still only took an hour-ish to try this approach by downloading and installing OBS, figuring out I needed a virtualcam plugin, finding it and fiddling w config, creating a dirt-simple "scene", and enabling it for use in Zoom. This is on an iPhone X (iOS 14.2), and Catalina (macOS 10.15.7).

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