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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#361
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely there's something in-between. Say, perhaps, black people make you uncomfortable, such that you're inclined against hiring them and you preferentially hire whites instead. Then, you wouldn't knowingly possess a racist motive but would be definitely acting racist and perpetuating racism. That seems pretty clearly to be a racist motive. "Black people make you uncomfortable" is literally traditional racism, and…

> "Black people make you uncomfortable" is literally traditional racism, and action taken based on that motive is racist. Good, you caught what I was saying. > Doing something like that without thinking through your intentions too hard doesn't make the act unintentional, because the intent is there whether you consciously evaluate it or not, and it doesn't change the motive. This seems to require a tortured interpret…

I don't think anyone would disagree that what you're highlighting are systemic problems that need to be addressed (well, except racists of course).

The point I was making is that labeling a racist, IMO, should require a conscious action linked to a bias along racial groupings, just like sexism and ageism do as well because it implies so many very negative characteristics that should only be linked to someone making a conscious decision that they hate some race, sex, age, or whatever. I guess I'm arguing how we should go about addressing the underlying problem and I don't agree that classifying someone racist and crucifying them, in the systemic context, is the way to go about making positive change.

I don't think labeling people purely ignorant of these side effects in a directly negative and confrontational way is productive at all, it might instead insight resentment and further entrench these stereotypes.

When you observe an example that was stated above where a hiring person said they "don't look like an engineer" or something to that effect, you may instead ask them to clarify what they mean--force them (politely) to ponder what are those attributes that make someone look like an engineer? What is the stereotyped biased picture they hold in their mind.

Chances are that person just picked up or borrowed a pattern they saw and have nothing consciously against black people or some other race. By pushing someone to consciously identify and quantify those characteristics you bring their biases to light and hopefully a connection quickly clicks and that person now realizes "holy crap, was I stereotyping against that person and not trying to look at it objectively? Did I just unknowingly discriminate against that person based on purely on race?" I've seen this happen many time when people are made aware of their biases and I've seen people genuinely try to change as a result.

Some people may require a bit more directed questioning to make these observations and surfacing the stereotype alone won't get you all the way there.

This is how you stamp out these biases: you make people consciously aware of their biases. Once they're aware of the bias, it becomes a conscious act of deciding if they want to reject that bias or continue to adopt it. If they reject the bias, they're probably not what I would call a racist. If they accept the bias, then that's a racist. We're all surrounded by bias and I'd argue there are biases deeply embedded in humans previously used as survival shortcuts that no longer apply or run counter to modern cultures and rules of societies. What matters is how we consciously identify such biases and how we then act on those observations and work to improve ourselves to become less biased, especially when the bias harms others for no good reason.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#362
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t have to knowingly possess a racist motive to be racist.

I think you do, otherwise this opens the door to anyone and everyone being a "racist" by some secondary, tertiary, or nth order effect. Essentially everyone would have some degree associated with them of how racist they are. I propose the following question: are people who eat at Chik-fil-A anti-LGBT (specifically gay) rights because they financially support a business through continued purchases that support anti-LG…

Motive and intent are not important to the person being discriminated against.

Not getting a job because the hiring manager is outwardly racist and not getting a job because the hiring manager worries you're a poor "culture fit" or that your HBCU degree isn't prestigious enough has the same effect on the job applicant.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not criticizing your generalization because you're basing it on two books. I'm criticizing your generalization from books that are mainly about one context (the legacy of the enslavement of Black people) to a different context (American skepticism of foreign food). I disagree with your basic premise that the two things arise from the same "phenomenon"--generalized "racism."

Ok. I'll give it one more go, just in case you are sincere but struggling. That is not in fact my basic premise. My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?" If America's history of racism were somehow only limited to Black people, then perhaps we could dis…

> My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?"

Yes, and this premise is flawed. You’re thinking of “racism” as one phenomenon weaving together the enslavement of Black people and skepticism about Chinese food. My point is that this is not a useful way to understand what’s happening.

Look at it this way. In Bangladesh, where I’m from, we also have many negative stereotypes of Chinese food. My impression is that such sentiments are common across the sub-continent. But obviously we don’t share what you’re calling “America’s lasting, endemic racism.” What you’re calling anti-Chinese racism is an expression of the xenophobia that exists in nearly every human society.

Anti-Black racism in America is completely different. It didn’t cause slavery. It was constructed to justify slavery and colonization: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/08/europe.... There is a superficial similarity, insofar both involves in-group versus out-group antagonism. But anti-Black racism isn’t just one expression of the ordinary out-group antagonism that exists all over the world. It’s something quite distinct.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. I'll give it one more go, just in case you are sincere but struggling. That is not in fact my basic premise. My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?" If America's history of racism were somehow only limited to Black people, then perhaps we could dis…

> My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?" Yes, and this premise is flawed. You’re thinking of “racism” as one phenomenon weaving together the enslavement of Black people and skepticism about Chinese food. My point is that this is not a useful way to un…

Your notion seems to be that one couldn't possibly connect the elements of white culture that led to anti-black violence and structural discrimination with the cultural elements that drove those same white people to perform a lot of anti-Asian violence and structural discrimination. I think that's bunk. If you don't, you're welcome to try to prove it. But don't prove it to me. Prove it to the many academics who study this topic. If you convince them, I'll definitely read your book.

Is that related to a broad human tendency to xenophobia? Sure. But that xenophobia is channeled through and reinforced by cultural elements. Many societies demonstrate racism, but none of them demonstrate it exactly equally to everybody else. Like it or not, there's a history and a structure here, and I think it's worth studying.

I understand that a lot of people have the hobby of pretending racism is a much smaller problem, or perhaps no problem at all. But since those people have been consistently wrong in the US for the last couple hundred years, I don't aim to devote a lot of energy to taking them seriously.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean his books on history. In the last 15 months or so, he's also published 3(!) books on racism in contemporary society.

Ok? None of them look like books whose goal is to prove that racism exists. With a book title like, "How to be an Antiracist", I would think anybody would understand that the target audience is people who are well past questioning whether racism is still a thing. It's like expecting a cookbook to open with studies on why meals are a good idea.

ok. Perhaps that's what he's trying to do. If someone wants more evidence that current racism is a significant force in determining outcomes in society, where should they look for references? What convinced you to move past questioning?

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#366
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's an uncomfortable thing to say, but I hope we're not dismissing hypotheses because of how they make us feel. More to the point - I agree with the comment above about how the term "racist" (and "white supremacist") makes people have fairly strong emotional reactions, and we'd probably have better discussions if we somehow avoided those words. But I hope we can move past them and analyze what this theory is s…

> but it would be pretty hard to argue that such rational-acting parents who love their children are not, at least a little bit, comfortable with using the reality of race in America to improve their own standing by placing themselves in proximity to whiteness! The phrase “using the reality of race in America to improve their own standing” really gets to the heart of the issue. Consistent with critical theory, it imp…

Surely the case of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in UK invalidates this? Their achievement test scores vis a vis Caribbeans etc

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#367
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dr Kwak was a real person "Dr Kwak" seems like an unfortunate typo for a doctor.

It's the original Dutch word for "quack" anyway, fully "kwakzalver".

Ha, full circle. Didn't realize the term originated from Dutch. I just presumed....ducks. Or a cow's opinion.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok? None of them look like books whose goal is to prove that racism exists. With a book title like, "How to be an Antiracist", I would think anybody would understand that the target audience is people who are well past questioning whether racism is still a thing. It's like expecting a cookbook to open with studies on why meals are a good idea.

ok. Perhaps that's what he's trying to do. If someone wants more evidence that current racism is a significant force in determining outcomes in society, where should they look for references? What convinced you to move past questioning?

I'm not an expert here, so I can't say for sure, and the evidence you personally need will depend a lot on you. Perhaps take an online African-American Studies course and go from there?

Just from what I've read, I'd again recommend Loewen's Sundown Towns. He covers the post-Reconstruction past in the early chapters; latter chapters bring it to the present day. The combination of historical data with historical testimony was very convincing to me. The Atlantic has had a number of good articles on this over the last decade. E.g.: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=atl...

There's a lot in the employment world. A study that was really eye-opening for me was this one: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

I also found some manager-focused classes on implicit bias very helpful in seeing how subtle the problem gets. An online course might help you as well. And the Project Implicit tests from Harvard helped me see some of my own implicit biases, which were notably different than my conscious beliefs.

And lastly, I strongly recommend breaking one's personal filter bubble: https://medium.com/@bjmay/how-26-tweets-broke-my-filter-bubb...

That was especially valuable for me in turning academic knowledge of the past into conviction about the present. When I listen to the daily lived experience of other people, it eventually became obvious to me that the same forces were at work. Racism has been diminished, and most racists know they can't speak openly [1]. But the problems have never gone away. As Faulkner said, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy#Evolution_(1...

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok. Perhaps that's what he's trying to do. If someone wants more evidence that current racism is a significant force in determining outcomes in society, where should they look for references? What convinced you to move past questioning?

I'm not an expert here, so I can't say for sure, and the evidence you personally need will depend a lot on you. Perhaps take an online African-American Studies course and go from there? Just from what I've read, I'd again recommend Loewen's Sundown Towns. He covers the post-Reconstruction past in the early chapters; latter chapters bring it to the present day. The combination of historical data with historical testim…

The IAT is pseudoscience.

The Implicit Association Test at Age 21: No Evidence for Construct Validity [0]

> The Implicit Association Test (IAT) is 21 years old. Greenwald et al. (1998) proposed that the IAT measures individual differences in implicit social cognition. This claim requires evidence of construct validity. I review the evidence and show that there is insufficient evidence for this claim. Most important, I show that few studies were able to test discriminant validity of the IAT as a measure of implicit personality characteristics and that a single-construct model fits multi-method data as well or better than a dual-construct models. Thus, the IAT appears to be a measure of the same personality characteristics that are measured with explicit measures. I also show that the validity of the IAT varies across personality characteristics. It has low validity as a measure of self-esteem, moderate validity as a measure of racial bias, and high validity as a measure of political orientation. The existing evidence also suggests that the IAT measures stable characteristics rather than states and has low predictive validity of single behaviors. Based on these findings, it is important that users of the IAT clearly distinguish between implicit measures and implicit constructs. The IAT is an implicit measure, but there is no evidence that it measures implicit constructs.

The Creators of the Implicit Association Test Should Get Their Story Straight [1]

> The problem, as I showed in a lengthy rundown of the many, many problems with the test published this past January, is that there’s very little evidence to support that claim that the IAT meaningfully predicts anything. In fact, the test is riddled with statistical problems — problems severe enough that it’s fair to ask whether it is effectively “misdiagnosing” the millions of people who have taken it, the vast majority of whom are likely unaware of its very serious shortcomings. There’s now solid research published in a top journal strongly suggesting the test cannot even meaningfully predict individual behavior. And if the test can’t predict individual behavior, it’s unclear exactly what it does do or why it should be the center of so many conversations and programs geared at fighting racism.

Psychology’s Favorite Tool for Measuring Racism Isn’t Up to the Job [2]

[0] https://replicationindex.com/2019/02/15/iat21

[1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/iat-behavior-problem...

[2] https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-...

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert here, so I can't say for sure, and the evidence you personally need will depend a lot on you. Perhaps take an online African-American Studies course and go from there? Just from what I've read, I'd again recommend Loewen's Sundown Towns. He covers the post-Reconstruction past in the early chapters; latter chapters bring it to the present day. The combination of historical data with historical testim…

The IAT is pseudoscience. The Implicit Association Test at Age 21: No Evidence for Construct Validity [0] > The Implicit Association Test (IAT) is 21 years old. Greenwald et al. (1998) proposed that the IAT measures individual differences in implicit social cognition. This claim requires evidence of construct validity. I review the evidence and show that there is insufficient evidence for this claim. Most important,…

What kind of person haunts 4-day-old articles to post long, off-topic comments like this? And that cites Jesse Singal of all people as some sort of authority?

What I said is that it was helpful to me personally. Which it was, in that it helped me recognize my own implicit anti-black bias. Unless you'd like to prove that the whole concept of unexamined biases is 100% unreal, please move along and let people have a discussion untainted with irrelevant interruptions.

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