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Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

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Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#181
post #124
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not let something break Because this is the professional equivalent of shitting in your hand and throwing it at the wall? The fact that an adult would suggest abdicating any professionalism and just letting a site with 60k users and investment backing start to break to prove a point is astounding.

The non-technical co-founder is trying to steal the fruits of OPs labor and slash his equity by more than 90%. This isn't sabotage, it's a labor strike until an equitable agreement is found.

Well technically no contracts are broken? Calling it a theft is overblown, there is no theft happening if all contractual obligations are met.

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#183
Find a lawyer/negotiator with experience in this area you can talk to directly, high-bandwidth. They'll echo many of the themes here, but be able to get (& give) more depth/detail.

This is a negotiation that's already started. Any communication about what they are or aren't interested in is a negotiating stance, or opening offer, which may be very far from what's possible if you properly understand your position/needs.

Too bad there wasn't a 'shotgun clause' from the beginning. (Then, even if you didn't have cash-on-hand, you could seek other financing/investment to win a fair/orderly divorce process. There are many investors who specialize in SaaS businesses.) Still, insisting on a bilateral agreement that whoever is able to pay more gets to buy the other out might be a reasonable negotiating goal for you, depending on other factors.

Your vesting cliff is very important. After the 1 year, there's zero justification for not delivering a full quarter of your shares (~10% of total equity). So I'd see retaining 10% equity (or at the very least 11/12th prorated if you do them the favor of leaving ASAP) as the absolute baseline you should consider.

It's unclear if your use of 'they is for gender-neutrality or indicates your co-founder & investor share this desire to get you out. But if the investor is neutral, or swayable, or cares about their reputation for treating technical cofounders, they may be all-important to a fair & amicable resolution.

That the co-founder would try this indicates some combination of real difficulties in the working relationship, differences in your perceived values of each other going forward, and/or a willingness to play hardball in grabbing more of a success in contravention of earlier agreements. To the extent it's that last factor, there are other ways you can still be edged-out, via dilution/re-orgs/etc, later on even if you resolved the current negotiation amicably. That's not a reason to run or give up, but something to keep in mind: a seemingly attractive result that's not ironclad could be further reneged. So you might give a little more, with the right protections, so that the result is more aligned/sustainable/enforceable in the future.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#184
post #180

This is pretty interesting to read through. I'm aware of a thing called "ERISA" , where (I think) there's law forbidding termination before vesting (retirement funds though). Are there any similar legal protections in place to prevent termination based _solely_ on equity vesting? And to all the comments here saying to just walk away and keep your peace; ie - just take it as a learning lesson. Which learning lesson is…

Don't work for randos.

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#185

I don’t know if you can still delete this, but this is way too specific and way too many people read HN for your co-founder to not see this. I would email dang at hn@ycombinator.com to see if they can at least delete the body of this post. Please seek legal advice and the personal advice of contact you can trust that has angel investment experience if you have one.

What difference would it make if the co-founder seen it? Maybe they would see sense...

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#186
some advice i got years ago that has proven its value time and time again... when dealing with ____heads, you gotta be a ____head too.

if your co-founder wants to take something from you without compensation, do not go lightly.

for no other reason, IMO, than to teach the other party a lesson. if he does this to you it will embolden him to do it to others. greedy people need to be stopped in their tracks.

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#187

Can I give you some advice that really sucks? Walk away. It's not fair, but starting a company isn't like getting a job. It's a relationship and a risk that doesn't always work out. Sometimes you find more money and success than you could ever dream of, and other times you waste 11 months. Here's my thought process. You and your cofounder aren't going to be able to work together after this. The company has no money a…

Maybe it's just because I'm an outsider, but startup finance is complete nonsense to me.

>Same goes for giving you the 40%... there's no way they can build a company when someone not involved owns a huge stake.

This actually happened to one of my professors, which represents the opposite end of the absurdity. He started the company with a friend. The company pivoted to a completely different direction and the friend left because it was outside his expertise. My professor wanted to "do the right thing" and preserve their friendship, so he let the friend keep all the equity. In the end, the friend ended up getting millions of dollars despite producing 0 value to the company.

There has to be some middle ground here, like offering options to the company to buy back OP's shares at the current valuation plus interest. If company still can't afford a buyback a few years later, then they didn't grow the company enough to deserve to own those shares anyways.

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would burn the entire thing to the ground and piss on its smoldering ashes before I would allow someone to take advantage of 11 months of my work just because he thinks he can make more money for himself if he positions himself as a solo founder.

"I would spend $15,000 of my own money and 8 more months of my life during which I deed control of my adrenal system to this stupid controversy and get little else done, and ultimately reach at best the same outcome as I'd have achieved walking away amicably, less expenses, before I would allow someone to take advantage of 11 months of my work".

Greater good/game theory argument. If we're all spineless, we just make it easier to be taken advantage of. Burning it to the ground is akin to MAD, but it only works if it's a likely outcome.

I'm not sure what I'd do but I'd view a 51/49% split as suspect from the start.

Re: Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

#190
If they dont have cash, tell him to issue you a convertible promisory note for $X amount that you think is fair. If the Company does well then they can pay you out or you can convert your stock into shares for cheap. If the company goes under, then you all lose. Lawyers can draft these for cheap, just make sure you put a timeline in there and make it one sided so you can convert at any time with anti-dilution provisions.
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