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Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

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Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#101

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

SahAssar wrote: post #41

I've never seen one of these "logic in html-attributes" systems take error checking seriously. In stimulus they start to mention it in "Designing For Resilience" (though only for feature-checking), but in "Working With External Resources" where it uses calls network/IO bound calls they never mention how to handle errors or if the framework just leaves it up to you. Stimulus is also where you need to write your own js…

I’ve used intercooler with browser-side routing and, the strategy for error recovery that makes sense in that context is “if something goes wrong, reload the page”: the server is designed to be able render the whole page or arbitrary subsets and, so, reloading should usually be safe.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#102

Post by jshen »

naikrovek wrote: post #93

amazing. This used to be called /cgi-bin/ with templates and XMLHttpRequest (a Microsoft invention initially supported only in IE then adopted by everyone) and now it's suddenly a new technology/approach but with a new name so you're not ridiculed for using it? I gotta give them credit for revisiting server-side page assembling though; moving application logic and templating mostly to the front end was a HUGE mistake…

cgi-bin didn’t give you the ability to update a chat page across several different windows in near real-time.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#103

Post by dharmab »

domano wrote: post #100
axegon_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thought exactly, though I fully support that. I often rant about how the modern web is billions of layers of duck tape over duck tape and it has become an unmanageable mess of libraries, frameworks, resources, all while javascript remains the most outrageous and absurd language ever created. I'm by no means a fan of rails or ruby for that matter but I think things like these are a considerably better alternative t…

Just wanted to point out that it is called duct tape, just to avoid misunderstandings since i had a similiar spelling error as a non-native speaker :)

This error is understandable as there is a popular brand of duct tape called Duck Tape.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#104

Post by inopinatus »

memco wrote: post #69
SahAssar wrote: post #41

I've never seen one of these "logic in html-attributes" systems take error checking seriously. In stimulus they start to mention it in "Designing For Resilience" (though only for feature-checking), but in "Working With External Resources" where it uses calls network/IO bound calls they never mention how to handle errors or if the framework just leaves it up to you. Stimulus is also where you need to write your own js…

A very good point! Presumably the appeal of a system like this is the potential for graceful degradation where if sockets aren’t working or some requests are failing then the default html behavior should still work: links will just take you to the original destination, but there’s no indication that this is actually what happens.

This is an isomorphic fetch. The original href already is the visited URL, so I'm not sure that trying that again is wise, or appropriate, unless the user chooses to reload.

The entire design philosophy here is to mimic apparent browser behaviour, or to delegate to it. Hence, to GP's question; you should expect the appearance of browser-like behaviour in any circumstance, modulo anything Turbo is specifically trying to do different. Deviation from baseline browser semantics was certainly a basis for filing bugs in its predecessor (Turbolinks).

As for what Turbo actually does, I checked the source. Good news, even for a first beta, they're not the cowboy nitwits alleged; it gracefully handles & distinguishes between broken visits and error-coded but otherwise normal content responses, and the state machine has a full set of hooks, incl. back to other JS/workers, busy-state element selectors, and the handy CSS progress bar carries over from Turbolinks.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#105

Post by methyl »

petey283 wrote: post #21
city41 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this little thread on Twitter interesting, complaining Hey (powered by hotwire) is too slow https://twitter.com/youyuxi/status/1337851036015480843

And here's some additional followup. Minor speculation that maybe his location is what caused slowdown. https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1292825527116369922

That's one of the reasons SPA aren't going anywhere: trying to handle all the user microinteractions on the server is great when you leave next to it, but it falls apart when your users are spread across the world, especially if it's not western-ish world with fast internet connections.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#106

Post by mosselman »

paxys wrote: post #10

It's hilarious that web servers rendering HTML and sending it to the browser over a TCP connection is now "cool new tech".

This isn’t new at all. This is version 7 of Turbolinks that has been renamed to Turbo and has some added versions. It has been what the Ruby on Rails and it’s creator have promoted for years and years.

The new thing about it are the name and associating it with Stimulus and some features, not the general concept.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#107

Post by ithrow »

axegon_ wrote: post #40
mmastrac wrote: post #4

What's old is new again. I recall ASP.NET had some interesting tech around this in the 2000s where it could dynamically update parts of the page. If I recall correctly, this made use of that new technology of the time called "XMLHttpRequest" (/s) which pretty much jump-started web 2.0.

My thought exactly, though I fully support that. I often rant about how the modern web is billions of layers of duck tape over duck tape and it has become an unmanageable mess of libraries, frameworks, resources, all while javascript remains the most outrageous and absurd language ever created. I'm by no means a fan of rails or ruby for that matter but I think things like these are a considerably better alternative t…

Javascript as a language is actually pretty decent these days, your criticism probably applies more to certain parts of the ecosystem.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#108

Post by rektide »

axegon_ wrote: post #96
rektide wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of duck tape yes, But there is suprisingly little layers on layers. Part of what has been amazing about the web is that the target remains the same. There is the DOM. Everyone is trying different ways to build & update the DOM. Agreed that there are better alternatives than a lot of what is out there. We seem to be in a mass consolidation, focusing around a couple very popular systems. I am glad to se…

If by surprisingly little, you mean 4 pages and 500mb of requirements for a "hello world" project with the "modern" web, then yes. The DOM has always been a mess, much like javascript. And the fact that no one has tried to do something about it contributes to the mountains of duckt tape. It was bad enough when angular showed up, but when all the other mumbo jumbo showed up like react, vue, webpack and whatnot is when…

Again, you are attributing to the web what a pop-culture is doing with it.

While willfully ignoring all the people doing better.

Maybe we are- as you fear- stuck, forever, in thick JS-to-JS transpilers & massive bundles & heavy frameworks. Maybe. I don't think so.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#110

Post by underdeserver »

petee wrote: post #109
underdeserver wrote: post #68

Laugh all you want but the hey.com website loads wicked fast.

Why wouldn't it? It's got like 2 pictures and isn't long. I also wouldn't call it wicked fast - this is normal speed, which everyone seems to have forgotten

The landing page has a lot more than 2 pictures, but also the rest of the website is fast. Show me another modern-design website that loads that fast.
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