Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills • Hacker News Board

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#401

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #379

iaw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has turned me from a pure free market thinking into a believer in single payer healthcare The current trend in 'free-market economics' is to call captured markets free and then argue for the relatively lax regulation. Most markets are not free markets and the healthcare definitely isn't. There's very little true choice, participants are typically under duress when seeking expensive services, and prices are hidden.…

A handy guide to check if healthcare is a free market: 1) Can you buy medicine from whoever sells it cheapest? 2) Can you hire the healthcare provider you want? 3) Are you financially punished for choosing your own health insurance? 4) Can you opt-out of government health services? 5) Can you waiver or partially waiver your right to sue the medical professional in exchange for cheaper services?

6) can you pay any odd person off the street to open you up and take out your appendix?

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#402

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #392

kristopolous wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, those who legislate and wield power have not invoked it in that way. That's the point. "Deregulation" is code for taking hundreds of laws and dumping them in a garbage bin. "Privatization" is code for stealing tax dollars and hiding it in offshore accounts. I only care about the actual, real world material reality that has historically factually happened. The champions politic in a way that tends strong…

> "Deregulation" is code for taking hundreds of laws and dumping them in a garbage bin Or regulation is taking things from the garbage bin and make them into law. > "Privatization" is code for stealing tax dollars and hiding it in offshore accounts. If tax dollars are being stolen, it is the government that is doing both the tax collection and allowing the tax plundering. > For instance the sanctity of contract matte…

Having capital is power though, so by that logic, having capitalists in a free market causes market failures

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#403

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #320

telchar wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free market principles fail for healthcare for reasons entirely unrelated to those things, as has been pointed out up-thread. You're advocating for regulations to be eliminated as if that would fix unrelated problems. Do you care if healthcare is improved, or do you just want to see free-market-style reforms for their own sake?

In 2013, 64% of health spending was paid for by the government [0]. The non-profit hospitals share of total hospital capacity has remained relatively stable (about 70%) for decades [0]. The regulation section of Wikipedia is a litany of anti-free-market policies [0]. You can argue that free market principles fail in healthcare, and I will happily disagree and we can all have a cheerful time. But the US hasn't tried a…

People arguing for socialized medicine are arguing for bringing down the absurd costs, by virtue of having a very strong negotiating position and economies of scale.

Canada's single payer system is an example of that.

In a free market, employment status would still be related to your healthcare, eg. through credit checks to see if you're moral enough to get surgery. Theres no reason companies would stop providing healthcare coverage, and for providers to bump costs to match the extra spending power

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#404

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #221

schoolornot wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are most of the costs even accumulated in hospitals? I'd imagine the price gouging certainly is. We arbitrarily restrict the number of MD students so why shouldn't we expect $1000/hr. bills for care?

Every country in the world restricts the number of MD students, bit only the US has truly mind-blowing billing practices, and care costs, and puts the average freshly minted doctor half a million dollars in student debt.

I don't think Cuba does?

They instead send their extra doctors out to other countries

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#405

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

agensaequivocum wrote: post #367

DangitBobby wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People love their insurance!" Is a dead giveaway that a politician is a sock puppet. Biden kept saying it during the primaries.

I'm not a politician and I will say: I love my insurance. Because it's actually pretty great.

I hate my insurance. I hear its great for America, but it's shit compared to back home

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#406

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #402

conanbatt wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Deregulation" is code for taking hundreds of laws and dumping them in a garbage bin Or regulation is taking things from the garbage bin and make them into law. > "Privatization" is code for stealing tax dollars and hiding it in offshore accounts. If tax dollars are being stolen, it is the government that is doing both the tax collection and allowing the tax plundering. > For instance the sanctity of contract matte…

Having capital is power though, so by that logic, having capitalists in a free market causes market failures

Power is being used very loosely here. The power to use violence is very difference to the "power" you get from producing something that is so good that gives you a lot of leverage.

The best way to beat a company that has market power is with other companies that fight in the same space or around it. And if there is one last man standing to reap profits from the victory, its again not necessarily bad. Market monopolies are overblown ghosts.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#407

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #394

conanbatt wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Deregulation" is code for taking hundreds of laws and dumping them in a garbage bin Or regulation is taking things from the garbage bin and make them into law. > "Privatization" is code for stealing tax dollars and hiding it in offshore accounts. If tax dollars are being stolen, it is the government that is doing both the tax collection and allowing the tax plundering. > For instance the sanctity of contract matte…

Every business offense I mentioned is orchestrated through government. As a tool of exploitation and enforcement, they're utterly inseparable. Concentrating the gain + spreading the cost requires both. Capital and governance (CG) have been the internal organs of the body politic forever. Hacker news, facebook, an elementary school, every institution is CG. The theoretical framework of free markets requires the fictio…

I agree with the notion that everything is related to governance, and free markets are not anarchy. But it is a proposal of a system that requires a set of rules, some nowadays unavoidably performed by government, but the key are the rules not the government.

In any case, I see the same corruption you see, and the question is how to go about it. If the state is powerful and corruptible, I want a smaller state, with less surface to be corrupted. And it is surprising how you can reveal most corruption by just the simple application of freedom: that's whats appealing of the free market framework.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#408

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #254

jsperson wrote: post #13

That it takes such effort to pass a bill like this - 80% public approval, banning a clearly predatory practice, has turned me from a pure free market thinking into a believer in single payer healthcare. The free market just doesn't work when there is very little elasticity in consumption. I've been on the receiving end of a $15K air ambulance bill (thankfully covered by insurance) as well as the out of network specia…

> into a believer in single payer healthcare. That isn't the part of the market which is broken though. The insurance companies want their vig, and they have no objection to cost increases because then they get the same percentage of a larger pot, but they're not actually where most of the money goes. It's really going to drug companies and medical devices companies and doctors and hospitals. Which all still exist ev…

What you're saying is that health care needs to stop being about health, I think.

The price sensitivity you're looking for is "yeah, you can pay 5k less for your broken arm, but they'll be cutting it off instead of setting it"

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#409

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

jccooper wrote: post #124

colejohnson66 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that not straight up fraud? If you don’t know if a procedure was for me or someone else, you’re lying by billing me!

Insurance and hospitals basically do bulk deals. Insurance is probably paying for the service one way or another, so they don't care much to whom the record is attached. And if you're not out of pocket, doesn't matter much to you either.

I imagine that the charge can be used to raise your rates though?

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#410

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

throwaway201103 wrote: post #324

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did this happen?

All over the place. Many states have "anti-gouging" laws. https://www.fmi.org/docs/default-source/gr-state/price-gougi...

$1M for one single ply roll is no different than a empty shelf