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Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

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Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#341

Post by lorenzhs »

te_chris wrote: post #175
lorenzhs wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't relate to this at all. I have a Canon EOS 450D (Rebel XSi, 2008 model year) with a few lenses that I used to love, but haven't really used for years now. Its low light performance sucks, it's almost impossible to photograph people at night. My phone does a much better job of that. Yes, the DSLR's optics run circles around any phone, but the sensor really does show its age. And since you specifically mention t…

You're comparing a modern phone to a very old camera in DSLR terms. Much like the nokia you probably had in 2008, things have very much moved on.

Well, the parent was talking about their even older DSLR and their equally modern phone, so I'm not sure what your point is. Nobody is claiming that a 2020 phone is anywhere close to a 2020 (or 2015, for that matter) DSLR or mirrorless camera.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#342

Post by bgrsgeg »

wenc wrote: post #150
bgrsgeg wrote: post #138

I think cameras are done. And not because of cellphones. I think Lytro did them in. First a cop out to what I'm about to say. My arguments are specifically for geometric optics as used in photography. Also, my argument is in the limit that (non-optical) technology gets better. Also, while I took (and loved) many optics classes at university a lifetime ago, I ultimately did not become an optical engineer. I'm sure the…

I remember Lytro. Being able to adjust focus in post was an exciting feature, but the cameras themselves were expensive and had lower quality sensors than the cameras of that time (ca 2012). As you say, the implementation failed but it demonstrated that the technology was feasible. Now the IP is with Google. I'm just waiting for the day when someone perfects light-field technology for cell phone cameras.

Lytro failed, I assume, for the same reasons that companies like Apple makes winners out of failed ideas. When it came out, I nerded out and wanted one so badly. Luckily I couldn't afford one.

From what I read was that the software was slow, and it was a pain in the butt to go back and re-frame or refocus a shot. People don't do post-processing for mere white balance [1], why would they bother for focus, focal length, depth of field, pan, and perspective?

On the other hand, it means that high end gear is done. Once a well executed light field camera comes to market professionals will flock to it. They have to do post-processing anyway so they'll adopt the camera that is smaller, lighter, single insanely fast lens. Most importantly perhaps, a camera where they don't have to wrestle the bloody auto-focus (the kid! focus of the running kid on the edge of the shot!).

Better sensors and faster CPUs and digital cameras as we know them are dead.

[1] That's why I like film, preferably B&W. Take the time to do the right shot. Accept the results.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#343

Post by garaetjjte »

rob74 wrote: post #84
numair wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already super-popular among large Japanese companies. Uniqlo was built on that tactic.

I think there are a lot of "first-world" companies that have copied this approach. See also "Design and Quality: IKEA of Sweden. Made in [insert cheap-manufacturing country here]."

OnePlus had funny one: "Designed by OnePlus. Assembled in China."

...as it somehow tries to imply that it is not designed in China (but it is).

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#344

Post by kalleboo »

dsego wrote: post #131
bee_rider wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty wild to think that, like, 20 years ago digital camera had relatively nice little screens on them and relatively good processing, while phones had those silly little green-and-black LCDs. I wonder if there's an alternate universe where people are saying "Nokia seems to be really doomed. This is sad but not surprising -- smartcamera antennas have gotten good enough that you can get reception almost anywher…

The camera manufacturers seem to be set in their ways. Wouldn't it be cool if you could load a sim card into your smart-camera & use android apps for cool features, like proper HDR (not the manual bracketing stuff), maybe apply some casual third-party filters, or instant streaming and sharing on social platforms. But maybe the target market, the professional photographers, are also the older generation that care more…

There have been a bunch of those but none of them caught on, because their target market already has a smartphone.

The idea I really liked was Sony that made "smart lenses" that was basically a decent sensor and a decent lens that you clipped onto your phone and connected via Bluetooth/WiFi and used the phone as a display and storage

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#345

Post by bgrsgeg »

analog31 wrote: post #164
bgrsgeg wrote: post #138

I think cameras are done. And not because of cellphones. I think Lytro did them in. First a cop out to what I'm about to say. My arguments are specifically for geometric optics as used in photography. Also, my argument is in the limit that (non-optical) technology gets better. Also, while I took (and loved) many optics classes at university a lifetime ago, I ultimately did not become an optical engineer. I'm sure the…

I do some optics design. The Lytro was exciting. Reinforcing what you say, when a light ray hits a pixel on a conventional sensor, the sensor only knows where the pixel is located on the sensor. Ensuring that each pixel corresponds to a specific location in the scene being photographed is the lens design problem in a nutshell. But a ray has both a position and a direction vector. If you can measure the complete ray v…

"There is still a problem, which is that you have to assign a physical sensor pixel to each point in a 4-d space (2 position and 2 direction coordinates), which means that you have to give up some of the spatial resolution of the sensor."

I agree, if I remember correctly Lytro had 1M pixles (??) during the 10Mpxl era. But as larger sensor appear (to my surprise - a sensor is a fixed area of Si!) to become cheaper to make I think this problem will go away.

Also, these are problems that companies like Apple excel at smashing. Apple disdains what the consumer thinks they want and they have a legion of fan boys to become early adopters and proselytize the masses. Incidentally, I think the founder of Lytro now works for Apple.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#346

Post by kalleboo »

Solvitieg wrote: post #321
meowzero wrote: post #106

I've been around photography for a while. This is sad news but not surprising. Mobile phones have gotten good enough that you don't need a DSLR anymore to take "nice pictures." All the computational photography to create fake bokeh, good low-light photos, etc. pretty much ate up all the demand for DSLR. If you look at the photos on a big monitor, you can spot the difference between a DSLR and smartphone. But on a sma…

Strong disagree here. I'm not sure what's going on, but this craze about computational photography is ruining cellphone photography for me. Try to take a selfie with the iPhone 12 Pro. It's awful. If you use the regular camera, it generates an HDR selfie exaggerating every imperfection on your face. And if you use portrait, it applies a fake looking blur and softness to your skin and is incredibly strict on framing.…

> My DSLR is the only lens I have that can produce a realistic photo nowadays and give me access to the raw sensor data.

Every iPhone currently for sale and I presume most high-end Androids support shooting in RAW, you just have to use a third-party app.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#347

Post by sudosysgen »

foldr wrote: post #337
sudosysgen wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about linear resolution. I'm talking about angular resolution. Here, the airy disk diameter is the image size. At the same magnification, the image height is proportional to the object size. Since when the f number is smaller, at the same magnification, substituting in the thin lens formula with the magnification, you find that the object size is inversely proportional to the focal length. From this y…

Apologies for the snark. This would probably be a fun discussion in person. In my experience, most apparent disagreements like this just come down to confusion over which factors are being held constant out of field of view, sensor size, focal length, total amount of light gathered, etc. etc. If the phone was using a slice of a DSLR sensor, then yes, the absolute aperture would be what was relevant, as you obviously…

It's not an either-or. Diffraction makes things a lot harder, and some phone lenses are indeed essentially diffraction limted

Secondly, I'm actually comparing resolution at fixed FoV, not a fixed focal length.

Again, the sensor size doesn't matter, what matters is the focal length. The focal length of an iPhone main lens isn't 10mm, the sensor size is 8.5mm but the focal length is actually around 5mm. You find the theoretical maximum linear resolution is more around 300-400 lp/mm. If you run the numbers, at f/1.6 the airy disk diameter is already bigger than the pixel pitch (2.11 microns airy disk and 1.7 micron pixel pitch). The resolution is already being seriously degraded by diffraction, although it's not completely diffraction yet. Lens aberrations make it even worse, of course. All in all, realistically the resolution is pretty much at its limit.

If you work at this regime where the linear resolution is close to equal to the airy disk, you start having a type of abberation where changing the wavelength of the system causes a change in the resolution, which can't be fixed. So pretty much in practice you can't really exceed the resolution we see now even in perfect light with a perfect lens, because you start having unavoidable abberrations that are very significant to the image.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#348

Post by sudosysgen »

m463 wrote: post #111
robotmay wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think camera bodies make a much larger difference these days than lenses, actually. Obviously the lens still makes a notable difference, and for certain forms, like wildlife photography, the lens requirements are inescapable. The new models out in the past few years have absolutely incredible low-light performance that completely change the lens landscape, even; you can now ditch the requirement of carrying a hefty…

> I think camera bodies make a much larger difference these days than lenses, actually. They always have. Yet strangely you can buy an L lens and it may outlast a whole series of bodies. (if we continue to have DSLRs that is).

You can even use the 80-200 2.8 L on even a Sony A7RIV, so certainly! That's what, 30 years?

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#349

Post by sudosysgen »

krooj wrote: post #245
perardi wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine so. At the risk of angering Leica fans: they’re shipping not exactly state of the art technology at very high prices, with a lot of the R&D actually being done by Panasonic. (Or, in the case of their Lux compact cameras, they’re literally shipping Panasonic cameras with a different sticker on them.) Look at the Leica Q2: it costs $5000. The Fuji X100V costs $1300. I know there’s a bigger sensor in the Q2, b…

Ehhhh... I've owned a bunch of digital Leica gear, and I'll flatly say that the M lenses produce some of the best images you'll see from a raw optical pipeline. A 50mm APO Summicron is an exceptional lens for its optical characteristics; same goes for most of their 'cron and 'lux models. By contrast, Leica's digital M bodies have always been at least a generation behind... at their time of release. The way you deal w…

You can just use M lenses on other bodies. With autofocus, even.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#350

Post by sudosysgen »

KineticLensman wrote: post #155
dsego wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The camera manufacturers seem to be set in their ways. Wouldn't it be cool if you could load a sim card into your smart-camera & use android apps for cool features, like proper HDR (not the manual bracketing stuff), maybe apply some casual third-party filters, or instant streaming and sharing on social platforms. But maybe the target market, the professional photographers, are also the older generation that care more…

This discussion crops up every so often: "Wouldn't it be nice if a camera had a full OS behind it". Personally, I'm very pleased that my camera (a Nikon D850) boots instantly (approx 0.2 seconds) and has a shutter lag of 0.05 seconds (when pre-focused). It essentially never unexpectedly hangs when I need to take a shot. For my preferred subjects (wildlife) a consistently instant response is far more important than ar…

Your camera doesn't actually boot in 0.2 seconds, it just wakes up from sleep.

My Sony runs Android and never hangs nor has an shutter lag. Instant response in everything. It can be done.

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