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Voat Is Shutting Down

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Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#261

Post by berryjerry »

kibwen wrote: post #232
aaron-santos wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling someone they will more conservative as they get older is a great in innoculation against that event occurring.

People don't get more conservative as they get older, they get more conservative when they have more to lose . It just so happens that as people get older they tend to get houses, families, long-term careers, etc, which tilts them towards preserving the status quo in amber so as not to threaten what they have. And if, hypothetically, a generation were to grow up and find themselves unable to afford a home of their ow…

People get more conservative as they get older because they realize things cost money, how hard they have to work to earn it, and how bad the government is at spending it for them. I'd say modern day conservativism is more akin to individualism - don't let others spend money for you because you spend your money more wisely, and if you don't it's your fault. I think you'll find most young people don't even make the correlation that everything governments spend costs money and that money comes from their own pockets. They usually consider the government to have infinite money and have barely stopped being taken care of by their parents or still are. You even see cities like Detroit going bankrupt because, no, governments don't have infinite money. You do have to pick and choose what to spend it on and you can't get everything that just sounds nice.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#262

Post by ianmcgowan »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50
ignoranceprior wrote: post #4

Voat was founded as a neutral free-speech platform. After alt-right extremists were booted off reddit, they found a new home there. The site was bombarded by /pol/ chan culture, and after that nobody else of other political persuasions really wanted to join. Kind of like that "paradox of intolerance" meme. Free speech platforms usually end up becoming extremist platforms. I remember going on voat a couple years ago a…

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

One person's witch hunt is another's "defense of tolerance". There's definitely a line where free speech runs into ideas and positions that are not compatible with free speech, e.g. how can you have a reasoned discussion with a Nazi if they believe certain groups are literally subhuman, and you happen to be part of (or even have normal human empathy for) one of those groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#263

Post by strenholme »

mech422 wrote: post #106
santoshalper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has a left-leaning tinge. Especially society in the age range that reddit caters to. There's no grand conspiracy. Right politics are wildly unpopular with young to middle-age people.

I can't respond to AntiImperialis2 directly anymore, so I'll leave this here... I don't think that because Boomers and (a lot of ?)GenX tended to grow more conservative as they got older proves it's 'the natural order'.. Millennials are approaching 40 now and the liberal ones I know are still very liberal.. I'd argue that Truman getting elected in 1948 meant that there were a lot 'progressive' older folks back then.…

The “people get more conservative as they get older” idea is somewhat of a myth. My family and family friends who were free love hippies in the 1960s and 1970s are Trump haters on Facebook today.

To give some more solid data than people in my circle of friends: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_presidentia... This is the demographics for the 1984 election, the one where Reagan wiped Mondale out. Among 18-24 year voters, 39% voted for Mondale (liberal/D); 61% voted for Reagan (conservative/R).

Now, let’s fast forward to 2004, which is the first election where young people were more liberal than older generations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_presidentia... Here, among 19-29 year old voters, it was 54% Kerry (D), 45% Bush (R). It was also the last election where a Republican won the national popular vote.

This year, with 18-24 year old voters, it was 65% Biden, 31% Trump: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia...

Point being, our youth and our society are a good deal more liberal than they were 15 or 25 years ago.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#264

Post by triceratops »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #209
triceratops wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So anyone espousing Soviet ideas like socialized medicine should be excommunicated as well That's a Soviet idea? It seems national health insurance was first conceived in Imperial Germany[0] (which the Weimar Republic, then the Nazis continued), then adopted in Britain, then Imperial Russia (which presumably the Soviets continued). Get your facts straight. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#Hist…

Who is talking about where an idea originated? Many of these ideas predate written language. Nazis didn't invent racism either, are you trying to say that racism isn't a Nazi idea? The context is clearly that it's an idea associated with them.

> The context is clearly that it's an idea associated with them.

Is it? Says who? The Soviets did a great many things. It doesn't mean all of them are "Soviet things". Nationalized healthcare predates the Soviets, still exists in nearly all capitalist countries in one form or another, and is viewed largely positively in each of those countries.

The Soviets had a powerful military and infamous police force. When you say "Soviet Russia" the average person will think "Red Army" and "KGB" before nationalized healthcare. Going by your logic are the military and police "socialist ideas"? They use government money to provide an equal level of service to all inhabitants of the nation - namely protecting and safeguarding them. Police and military obviously predate socialism/communism but the Soviets were renowned for them, so that makes them socialist ideas, right?

Comparing racism in Nazism - a core central tenet, and one that's actively harmful, to nationalized healthcare in communism - an incidental feature, mostly positive, and also found in nearly every capitalist country, is a strawman.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#265

Post by jml7c5 »

tootie wrote: post #96
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

The problems on reddit started the second it became commercially successful. First came paid promotions, then came the propaganda. Too much of the "free speech" was totally insincere attempts at manipulation.

What time frame are you talking here?

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#266

Post by berryjerry »

raldi wrote: post #84

Moderated communities beat unmoderated ones on any metric you can name. Always have, always will. Nobody wants to drink at a pub that won't throw out rude patrons.

This is dead on correct. The problem is online most people don't have to hear what you say, they can just not subscribe or not follow you and never hear a word of what you said. This is why over-moderation on the big tech sites like Reddit, Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook is so frustrating. It goes beyond kicking someone out of the bar to not allowing someone to open a bar. And they get their moderation wrong, and I mean a lot. Unless the person they got it wrong with has a following that noticed it, they have zero chance at appealing or arguing their side.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#267

Post by modeless »

yaomtc wrote: post #233
andrewflnr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old.reddit.com still exists, and is a lot more usable. Ed: to be clear, I use it logged in. I don't know how dark-patterny it is when logged out.

Old.reddit.com is not usable on mobile.

I use it on mobile. Still better than the new site. Chrome has bugs with the "text scaling" feature but if you turn it off then old.reddit.com works fine.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#268

Post by yongjik »

mech422 wrote: post #106
santoshalper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has a left-leaning tinge. Especially society in the age range that reddit caters to. There's no grand conspiracy. Right politics are wildly unpopular with young to middle-age people.

I can't respond to AntiImperialis2 directly anymore, so I'll leave this here... I don't think that because Boomers and (a lot of ?)GenX tended to grow more conservative as they got older proves it's 'the natural order'.. Millennials are approaching 40 now and the liberal ones I know are still very liberal.. I'd argue that Truman getting elected in 1948 meant that there were a lot 'progressive' older folks back then.…

I think the primary factor is that the society itself becomes more progressive, so definitions of "progressive/conservative" change. Sixty years ago, segregated schools were supported by mainstream conservatives, and same-sex marriage would have been considered a radical leftist agenda. An "ordinary" young person from 1960s, growing old without changing their opinions, would seem hopelessly out of touch today.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#269

Post by dragonwriter »

triceratops wrote: post #264
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is talking about where an idea originated? Many of these ideas predate written language. Nazis didn't invent racism either, are you trying to say that racism isn't a Nazi idea? The context is clearly that it's an idea associated with them.

> The context is clearly that it's an idea associated with them. Is it? Says who? The Soviets did a great many things. It doesn't mean all of them are "Soviet things". Nationalized healthcare predates the Soviets, still exists in nearly all capitalist countries in one form or another, and is viewed largely positively in each of those countries. The Soviets had a powerful military and infamous police force. When you s…

> Nationalized healthcare predates the Soviets

Where? In most of the Western countries that have it, it post-dates WWII, and corresponds to the replacement of capitalism in the relatively pure sense with the modern mixed economy, which is arguably more Marxist than the USSR and other “Communist” regimes based on Leninism and it's descendants.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#270

Post by pryelluw »

intended wrote: post #78
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

Those days ended fast. I saw it happen. On my forum, that very question was asked, and it wasn’t a philosophical debate. It was an operational one - how do we balance free speech ideals vs actual forum evidence. The framework that fits the evidence and the ideals was 1) we want a market place of ideas to function 2) there is content that easily dominates and sidelines all other ideas. 3) there are Maliciously enginee…

Do you think charging for a forum account would change the outcome?

Would having people pay for a user account in order to be able to post on a forum reduce the amount of hate speech and related?

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